DISQUS

greywulf · 1 year ago

This is huge news. I've been toying with the App Engine for most of the day, and it's good stuff. Solid, dependable and predictable - just what's needed. Add in the awesome scalability potential and Google's free 500Mb carrot and it's an easy sell. 500Mb is more than enough for the 98% of apps that fail, leaving the other 2% willing and able to pay for the service. Perfect.

I reckon Yahoo will be pulling that offer from Microsoft out of the bottom drawer to give it another look over right.... about..... now!

tpet · 1 year ago

The use of Python is intriguing. Always been more of a "Scripter" than a "Programmer" myself (ah .. those early "Userland Frontier" days ...). May just have to knock the dust off my braincells and do a little exploring.

Pratik Patel · 1 year ago

Yes, Python is Basic. It's a pretty Damn good Basic. It's a little more mature than Ruby. And integration of Django in Appengine means a whole lot. We just have to learn how to structure our data differently.

smmilton · 1 year ago

The data limitations are such that you can't create free competitors to their own primary services, but you can still create cool new scalable applications with no upfront investment.

Rex Pechler · 1 year ago

I'm really excited about AppEngine too. I'm hoping to see faster innovation in web services... this is perfect for social apps on OpenSocial or Facebook Apps right? ... among other things...

Shakermaker · 1 year ago

A caveat on the use of scalable here, surely. Scalable in the sense of storage and resources, not in terms of complexity. A "civilian" will still not be able to write a scalable search algorithm or an ERP with just unlimited resources. It needs good code.

Shane Conder · 1 year ago

I don't know that I'd say civilians, but civilians scripters, at least (your target audience, most likely). The key thing, though, is shrinkwrapped apps. GAE isn't LAMP. AWS is LAMP. GAE isn't traditional. AWS is. Perhaps this is closer to web service hosting 3.0 where 1.0 being a traditional dedicated host, and 2.0 being a virtual, scalable host.

It's certainly got me learning Python in a hurry -- even if they will introduce Perl or PHP in the near future.

martin_english · 1 year ago

I have a perception probklem with some of the new technologies, probably due to my enterprise (i.e monolitic, centrally managed / administered) background;
However, Shane has a valid point - while you can take an AWS instance and (relatively) easily dump it on any x86 archetechture, it's the current model - hosting 2.0, if you like.
GAE is a revolutionary disconnect from this.

lemon obrien · 1 year ago

do you know your website is really slow? at least to load, it's been this way for a couple of weeks.

dave · 1 year ago

OK it's slow on your machine. It's not slow here. Maybe you should say what browser you're using to see if other people using that browser are experiencing htis slowness.

claymeadow · 1 year ago

considering that amazon's primary profits are from audio cd and dead tree books they may not be long for this earth so it may be safe to not consider them as an issue for google in the long term.

n8k99 · 1 year ago

I find it hard to believe that Amazon is unaware of any potential changes to their artifact sales business; kindle? MP3 downloads w/o DRM or OS preferences. Don't give Amazon a knockout count, yet.

John Furrier · 1 year ago

Dave: great assessment but to move forward your analogy is to think about interoperability among apps once they scale past the limit of AppEngine. The open question in my mind is how they will port the scale question once someone writes a great app that supercedes the limit on Google.

Basic and Pascal worked great for primative apps so i'm not to sure how python will work in today's not so primative web services world. Sure in Google's part of the stack it's primative but underneath Google it's far from primative - that's the assembly code metaphor - Enter the network layer - hello Cisco.

dave · 1 year ago

Remember what happened with GMail -- how they kept making the free storage amount larger, I bet that'll be in play here too, and it'll take a while before people hit the barriers. We know where they are at the start, people likely won't build apps that are likely to exceed the limits. And then at some point they'll announce their pricing. And Python isn't an issue, it's a fast language. CPUs are a million times faster today than they were in 1981 when PCs rolled out, and even then Pascal was a fine deployment language.

Daniel Ha · 1 year ago

Love the Python and Django influence on AppEngine.

Disqus is built on Python+Django. :)

awilensky · 1 year ago

I'm sure that new language bindings are not too far away. When Amazon S3 and EC2 came around, it took the ruby community about 4 months to get adapters out the door. Now, we have keroku, a Web IDE for Rails Apps - unfortunately, they don't host the database, which the Achilles heel of Rails scaling issues.

My bottom dollar says that bungee labs has some serious heartburn now - they have a strange and unfamiliar language, zero community (comparably), and an uphill fight. The Python crowd must be crowing, crowing with delight.

Now, Mr. Winer, can you recommend a good Python book?
:)

calvin · 1 year ago

It would be nice if there was a link to app engine in the blog post... please...
but a great book to get started with python is this: http://www.amazon.com/Python-Essential-Referenc...
Beazley's book Python an Essential Reference has an initial chapter that gives you all the basics to dig and code. If you know how to program, do the simple examples in that first chapter and you'll be a python programmer. It covers all of the basics. In the first edition it's about 10 pages or so. It's a bit longer now. The rest of the book is more detailed information and libraries. it is the best programming book I've ever encountered to get started.

the only thing I though was comparable was learning frontier in an evening. the docs to do that back in the day were just great.

davingreenwell · 1 year ago

Something I haven't seen mentioned too much is what this means down the road for Google when they want to acquire a company that has built it's application on this platform. This could (or definitely) mean more profitable acquisitions of future web apps for them to build into their suite. This will definitely streamline transitions in the future should they come across a successful candidate.

dave · 1 year ago

That was the major point I made in my second piece in this thread.

http://www.scripting.com/stories/2008/03/30/why...

OliverTaco · 1 year ago

Dave - You are 100x as smart as I am, but I know you've been around almost as long as me, so I am puzzled when you say: "shrinkwrap net apps that scale that can be deployed by civillians."

Never gonna happen. Oh, well, when TMIAHM's Mike comes alive, maybe.

What I do think might happen is that badly written apps from junior programmers without systems experience will suddenly be able to partially scale because really really smart guys gave them an infinitely powerful sandbox to build castles in. (hmm, Mike, are you there?)

Would Digg be any more stable if it were running in Google space? No.

BTW, I am impressed that it now costs $0 in infrastructure to build a trial app that runs pretty well. Because you can use no-ip.com and a pc with cheap attached storage to load test data in/out of your 500MB space.

-OT

JT Perry · 1 year ago

I am also reserving judgement for a while. What has me concerned at this point is lock-in. At least with Amazon EC2, I can move my code to any linux installation. This is whether or not I move to another cloud or my own servers. I realize you will always have custom scripts to integrate with the EC2 environment and plumbing to S3. However, I think you are very deeply tieing yourself to Google with their offering. This is an early opinion and time will tell. I am very happy they have offered it, and I look forward to watching for a while.

William Platnick · 1 year ago

My coworkers and I were just discussing your point on Windows in regards to this notice as well. I run the technical operations for a popular Windows hosting firm and we were all saying how disappointed we were that Microsoft hasn't built a lot of the features in Virtuozzo and other virtualization layers into the OS itself. At the same time, we're very thankful that nobody (Amazon or Google) has an offering that could really take over our niche in the marker place...yet. I have a feeling it's just a matter of time though.

smichel · 1 year ago

I've been deep in Python & Django for the last 2 months, rewriting an ecommerce site from a Perl codebase that's been developed over 7 years. We have it almost ready to ship, and it's been a hoot. I was skeptical about Python, but it didn't take me long to start using the idioms, like List Comprehension, and the switch from PHP and then Ruby was pretty easy to make. The Django world is pretty excited, and anything that makes me a bit more employable is good news. Looking forward to digging into the SDK, but since it's Django, I already know a bunch of it.

Sridhar Vembu · 1 year ago

Great post, Dave. I felt exactly the same thing - this is the IBM PC Moment for the industry ...

Robert S. Robbins · 1 year ago

Microsoft has already responded to the cloud computing market with SQL Server Data Service (SSDS) "a highly scalable and cost-effective on-demand data storage and query processing web service". I've been creating small web applications in 100% JavaScript which require no web server infrastructure. They get their data from public web services but I don't need to provide any resources for them.

francine hardaway · 1 year ago

Okay, so you finally answered the question I asked on Twitter this AM -- what does this mean to ME? I guess I will be able to deploy net apps. Huh? No, what it really means to me is that net apps will get better, because there won't be so many barriers to entry for young, innovative developers.

dave · 1 year ago

Try to imagine asking that question in August 1981 when IBM announced its first PC.

There had been a market for personal computers for about five years, and some leaders had emerged, Radio Shack, Commodore, Atari, Apple, a variety of manufacturers making CP/M machines.

What would that have meant for you?

Well, a bunch of things.

1. Now that Apple has competition they may work harder to get a new computer out that is even easier to use (three years later the first Mac would ship).

2. A bunch of nerds that hadn't wanted to try the messy world of personal computers would see it as a moment to jump, so there would be a larger market for packaged software.

3. A bunch of those nerds that jumped will learn how to program (actually they'll all learn how to program cause you have to to use IBM's first PC) and will make new kinds of software that only makes sense in the new commercial PC environment.

4. You might be ready to buy a computer in say four or five years after that, and yes you would deploy the equivalent of a net app. Imho it won't be any harder to install a net app than it was to install Word or 1-2-3 in 1987 or 1988.

But on the other hand, geeks have work to do Francine, and not everything we do has to make sense to everyone else for it to have value.

Radnar Birzon · 1 year ago

Thoughtful post, Mr. Winer. You are spot on about "shrinkwrap net apps that scale ... civilians". But, that's going to take some time coming. I can't help think, though, that there is another (un)intended consequence of App Engine.

So, there are a set of people today who don't have to deal with a learning curve in order to get the most out of this service - and they happen to work inside Google!! With everything going on wrt the GOOG stock price, vesting of old-timers etc, a bunch of programmers could leave and start companies building new and great apps without skipping a beat. It would, in fact, be a head start.

And, as you rightly observe, the 'hits' among these could then be acquired back by Google, and push-button integrated. Could actually be a scenario that Google wouldn't be averse to, methinks.

confused.. · 1 year ago

I am principal at mid size eCommerce business and just can't get what the fuss about..isn't the development cost far outweighs hosting cost? how many people have need of youtube kind of storage/bandwidth..our server machines don't cost that much ..so does the cost at one of the well known ad networks we work with.. i am curious to know who is the targeted customer base and what's the ROI..unless you crawl a lot of useless data or don't know how proxies and caching works there should not be any need of such thing for any meaningful business..but may be i don't know..

garth · 1 year ago

I think the biggest benefit is being able to scale up or down quickly without having to over invest in hardware or long term hosting contracts. ie. short term traffic increases or occasional bulk processing

Dave Thomas · 1 year ago

Dave:

You talk about being pissed at Microsoft because, having made a bet in the 90s, you're now stuck with two Windows boxes.

Is this not the same situation?

dave · 1 year ago

I had hoped, when making the bet, to be transported into the future by Microsoft's self-interest.

Not sure in what way you think this is the same situation. Google is like Microsoft, a platform vendor, that could, if they're not smart, drive their own platform down a path that isn't lucrative.

I think it's more likely that Google will shed key pieces of their platform into open source to give developers more incentive to invest. I've been listening to them and watching them, and have formed this opinion, but it's just an opinion. It could be wrong. But I will continue to watch, and gauge my own investment accordingly.

I've already made a very substantial investment in Amazon and I don't plan to abandon that. It has the advantage of working with my software (the OPML Editor) where Google's does not and unless they radically change it, can't.

This is what we developers love - a two-party system with two very real very serious players with different approaches. There's room a few more, but the more compatibility the better for everyone, imho.

Maybe this is the beginning of tomorrow's piece. :-)

william · 1 year ago

This seems so very much like dark days of the Microsoft OS monopoly. Who can forget the memories of; stifled competition, and price fixing. In this case Google does the arm twisting AND knuckle cracking by dropping the pricing of a service to free. Goolge is using the advantage of massive scale built on the backs of consumers and media to choke the life out of them and any competitor.

Do we now face a world where all apps are run on the google platform and coded to their specifications. Have we forgotten what happened to Borland, Netscape, and Novel.

Make no bones about it; Google is trying to be the next OS at any cost. If they go on this path unchallenged we will see the snuffing out of a vibrant industry that was once the home of rebels that believed in the possibilities and the freedom of choice.


It is also clear that Google is the biggest danger to Open Source software that we have ever seen.
Where is the cloud/OS for those of us that want a choice and don't think its a good idea for one company to own the very life of the internet.

We at adelph.us will be launching an alternative

"You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe."

"You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more."

from the Matrix written by Andy Wachowski & Larry Wachowski

mc · 1 year ago

"Now Google is taking the black magic out of operating a scalable web app. Python is the new BASIC. "

I would go a step further and say Google is taking the black magic out of Web Apps in general.

Randy · 1 year ago

I agree with Dave.

I see Google Apps as a way to try out a new web site concept, think Digg for example, quick, cheap, and easy. It only costs money if it becomes popular. As for lock in, that's only a problem if the web site becomes popular, and Google's costs are not competitive. A well funded start-up might be put off by the lock-in issues, but a zillion self-funded concepts don't care.

johnmc · 1 year ago

Radar, the advantage for google is no assimilation friction. If they see an app taking off (they are monitoring you) then they can turn around and make either job offer to the team or a buyout. That offer will come long before the VC crowd gets hold of them.

Dave, I am surprised you are surprised about Microsoft. Microsoft has made only 2 right moves in its existence and 2 very bad misses. Faking IBM out of owning the OS and beating Novell in the NOS game were the wins. The losses were not recognizing the Netscape threat and now Saas. [Sorry the Software + Services play they have going won't cut it. Still requires too much investment at the desktop.] So with that track record over a 30 year period I never bet on MS. I've Unix/Linux since the 1990s.

Duane Storey · 1 year ago

I think you should put the glass of Google kool-aid down for a sec :P The limitations on the service are serious, and like you said Amazon has a huge head-start. Given that Google does some fairly serious datamining already with gmail and other services, I would hope most businesses would be a bit reluctant about placing their data on Google's machines. I mean, who's customer does a person ultimately become, yours or Google's? Considering that most of the major acquisitions in the last five years (think skype) have essentially been for the user-base as opposed to the technology, I think you potentially risk devaluing your company by tying it into the Google infrastructure.

Also, if you're not happy with your windows hosting, why not move?

dmarti · 1 year ago

Just to be constructive, and all OS flamage aside, what about the two Windows boxes is really a dead fucking end? If you wanted to preserve your development investment in what you now have running on the Windows boxes, what's the barrier between what you have now and where you need to be?

(In the late 1990s, I ran into one company that had huge amounts of code in C++ with MFC, and a well-known Linux/Windows migration guru said, in essence, "you'd have to do a total rewrite" -- but what's the obstacle today? )

jezarnold · 1 year ago

Dave... confusing title.. especially as Google has a Google Apps www.google.com/a

Nice article though

Carlos Leyva · 1 year ago

Dave,

Yeah this is a VERY BIG DEAL! You are going to see innovation coming from many different places and not just tech. The savvy "civilians" are going to use this platform to transform lots of backwards industries (e.g. law). The Google DNA is spreading and MS is late again and can only respond with "me too." By then, the party is over, mostly.

Amelie · 1 year ago

hi there !

"You are going to see innovation coming from many different places" ! Yes ! and that's a big deal for us too ;)

Jamendo tested the new Google App Engine !

We developped an app from Jamendo ! the game is easy, a chrono start, playing a track from jamendo.. you are connected with a partner and both of you have to tag the track you are listening. when you have 1 or 2 tag in common, you win one point !
be the best !!

feel free to test it, to comment it, it's here :
http://jamendogame.appspot.com/

cheers