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Apple dropped the ball on creating a good customer experience.
But as to using used or reconditioned replacement parts, there is really nothing wrong as long as the part works. I think it is standard verbiage. It's on all the warranty replacement agreements I have seen.
Regarding keeping the defective drive, you can if you pay the charge. I don't imagine the charge for the drive is the same as new. This is exactly how the auto industry works too. Many replacement parts have "core charges". For instance, you replace your starter and the new starter costs $200. The core charge for the old starter is $30. when you give them the older starter you get $30 dollars back.
Admittedly, Apple, and everyone else, could be much clearer about how this works, but they want your defective part for free. In the auto-industry, lots of mechanics fix the defective parts themselves. So a defective parts value is probably greater in that industry than in the tech industry. I would be curious to find out what the "additional cost" is for your defective hard drive.
Btw, what was the total charge for your BOGU experience?
Fry's lists a fujitsu 80g for 99.99:
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/5369948?site=s...
theoretically you could have taken in a replacement drive of your own and had them install it, paying the installation charge, and then kept your own drive. or simply bought a drive, and then seperately asked them to install it. keeping the two as separate transactions should have gotten around that part switch problem.
I would have said their may be information on the drive which I am not authorized to provide and see what they do. This is of course true. You were certainly violating the terms of all the commercial software you installed on that drive by distributing a copy of that software to a third party(Apple) without permission.
I think the Apple tech should have been much clearer about what was actually going to happen, and by doing so you would have been a much happier person. you may not have used their repair service or you may have asked more questions about data destruction policies. Apple really did drop the ball on how this is handled.
But, thanks to you, I am much better informed. I have advice for my friends and clients to use when going to the apple store to replace a dead drive.
thanks for sharing the story.
But in this case, you PURCHASED a new one. That means the old one is yours as well. Boo. And here I am considering purchasing my first macbook next week.
OTOH, I should point out that since I've been supporting Macs (over 10 years) Consumer Reports has been notably anti-Apple. Back when Apple was consistently rated #1 in Customer Support, Consumer Reports was panning Apple. The last time I check (or rather ran across the numbers) Apple was rated in the top 3 for Customer Approval ratings though they had fallen from #1. I don't recall who conducted the polling.
I really am an evangelist for Apple, I get people to convert, I bought their stock, I look for excuses to buy all their products, sometimes more than one (like the Airport Extreme).
They keep telling us how much better they are than the others, I'd like them to live up to that promise.
A quick search on New Egg gets you a 200GB drive for the same price and 250GB for not much more.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item...
Macbooks, as opposed to the MB Pros, are a breeze to upgrade the hard drive and memory yourself.
I can see a manufacturer wanting to keep the old drive when you take your machine in for repair and it is covered under warranty. To me, it sounds like Dave had to pay money to get a new drive because it wasn't covered under warranty - what right do they have to keep the old drive in that situation? That makes no sense!
This is horrible to hear, but honestly I am not surprised as an apple customer. I have been a mac user for almost 2 years now, and have had numerous dealings with them with mostly the same outcome as you. I posted about my macbook fiasco a while back: http://josh.the-owens.com/archives/2006/09/06/b.... In the end it took over 2 weeks to get my primary business machine back. Their only response was to get a backup machine. Since my primary work happens on these machines, I had no choice but to keep my whtie macbook when I upraded to a macbook pro - I can't afford the downtime!
Apple customer service is certainly in a league of it's own.
Is there some compulsion to be cool that Apple has tapped into? It seems almost like a drug dependency.
Like you, I stopped using Macs in the mid 90s, but unlike you I haven't 'switched' back. It's posts like this (among many others from many people) that help me remember why I moved out of the Apple camp, and why I don't anticipate returning.
Spot on:
if Apple want to be "the good guys", then they ought to act that way.
Aside from buying their products for beauttiful form & function, it's also a statement (for me) that I'm *not* buying from big bad MSoft. That part of the argument falls apart if this is how Apple's store staff (& the policy they serve up) treat their customers.
... +, what happens to the data on your drive? Presumably there's both commercially sensitive data, and private information on the drive. Are Apple going to take responsibility for it? What commitment did they give to protect your data on their failed drive?
You can also try the local We Fix Macs place if you come to Palo Alto (I don't know if they have stores anywhere else.)
Jason
I love apple products. But their repair services are terrible. I find the people at the genius bar unhelpful and a little arrogant.
Keith E
Less expensive amount. I think they sold you a "new" expensive hard drive and Steal yours with ur
Consent.
Do you wrote to Apple??
Maybe this is a good thing Dave, one of the things that Apple seems to have avoided with a lot of its fan base is accountability, the arrogance that the company projects outward is long overdue to be stripped away, Apple needs Humility to fuel it through the next faze of it's growth.
I would have not left the store without my broken drive.
Nigel
However, if you *paid* for a new drive and they gave you a refurb drive *and* kept the old drive, that seems fishy. The section you highlighted seems to apply to warranty work - since you *paid* for the repair, does that section really apply?
I'm an Apple user, but this really seems like something you might want to report to your local consumer protection board.
In their (weak) defense, this approach to repair work probably works well for non-techies who "just want it fixed" no matter what. It was overpriced, but quick and simple. Lot's of people will pay for the quick and simple.
Here's what I'd do if they told me I had a bad drive: First I'd say "thank you for figuring that out" and ask for the computer back. Then I'd buy a new drive elsewhere - I just got a 160GB 2.5" SATA drive for my wife's Macbook for $108. Then I'd replace it myself.
The process of replacing the drive in a Macbook is absurdly easy. It takes maybe 3 minutes. 1. Turn computer off. 2. Remove battery. 3. Remove three screws holding a little plate. 4. Pull out the drive. 5. Slide the new one in. 6. Replace the plate with the three screws. 7. Replace the battery.
Now you need to format the drive and restore from backup.
Hard to say if your time is worth enough to not have to do this yourself at their prices.
Take care.
Dan
Given how often your Macs break, you might consider Apple Care. Many people see such extended warranties as a scam, but I just typically roll it into the price of the computer and amortize it over 3 years. For my Black MacBook (1st gen), it worked out to about $600/yr. If something were to break 18 mos. after purchase and I need it repaired (which is typical), very few repairs cost less than the price of Apple Care. This particular repair was less than the Apple Care price by $90, but that assumes this is the only thing that'll break in the 3 year period, which is optimistic.
Back before Apple had their own retail arm, I worked in the service department for an Apple Specialist and their prices on all service parts have long been outrageous for everything, including RAM and disks.
In an out-of-warranty situation like this, we would just sell them a brand new drive (often larger than the old one for less money) and charge an install fee ($30ish) instead of using the Apple part. They kept the old drive if they wanted to AND it saved them around 20%.
This, BTW, is one downside to Apple trying to bring all of the retail business (sales and repair) in-house.
If you had gone to Fry's and bought a replacement drive from them, opened up the machine and put it in, would you have voided any warranty? And what is the value of a warranty that requires you to pay 60% more than market price for a replacement part without the right to keep the broken part?
Your point about data recovery is the one that really hit home the hardest for me, because I had a situation where a drive in my PC died and wasn't adequately backed up. I did recover data from it eventually, and if I can do it, so could others. I don't think I'd just be flinging my dead drive back at the manufacturer and saying, "Here, refurbish it."
I'm not getting excited about the prospect of buying a MacBook for my daughter this week after what I've been reading about drive failures and the like. Not at all.
I enjoy reading your blog since before it was called a blog, so I'm glad if I can help you out and save you some bucks...
Apparently, Apple got a flawed batch of Seagate Momentus drives that they put in the early MacBooks.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/warning/seagate-25+i...
(via google ;-)
My neighbor, a friendly massage therapist, had the same problem with the hd in her 1.5 year old black MacBook. Even though she is not covered by warranty, Apple offered to replace it for free! (@ NYC store)
But also, would keep her old 80GB drive in exchange (of course).
Her problem, she doesn't have any back-ups and all her GBs of photos would be lost. I tried all tricks of the trade to get her HD to spin up, even putting it in the freezer for 24h to shrink the metal...But no success. Her hard drive obviously suffered a fatal head crash. So, if this was caused due to faulty manufacturing by Seagate, i assume Seagate/ Apple will replace the affected drives free of charge.
I'm a bit surprised though, you as a savvy New Yorker should know better than buying accessories like RAM or hard drives from Apple :-).
$2/GB was a standard price point for notebook HDs up to a year ago. So, Apple isn't too greedy, just a little late updating their prices...;-)
Having said this, a couple of months ago I bought an external 200GB Hitachi drive on sale for $140. It took me 5min to swap it with the drive in my Macbook ( 9 screws in total) That's great engineering!
My advice to you Dave is, try to find out if your drive is one of the faulty Seagates and then go back to the Apple manager and ask for a free replacement.
Funny how that works.
btw - had breakfast at the new 2nd Ave Deli on 33rd this morning, and alot of the old faces are back. Pastrami was great. : )
I guess the moral of the story is that:
1. The level of quality care varies from store to store
2. If you don't get satisfaction the first time, escalate until you do
3. Contact Apple customer care by phone and explain this issue to them. My experience with them is they do listen.
Anyway, hope it turns out well for you.
Then I happened across a nice little utility app called SMART Utility (by Volitans Software) that can check a hard drive's internal metrics. Boot from DVD, run SMART Utility from a USB key, and I found that the drive, by its own reckoning, was shot. So then I could buy a drive online instead of having to deal with Apple.
SMART Utility won't solve everyone's problems, but it's a quick, cheap test for the drive. Take that for what it's worth.
First, they charged you NO labor, did they? $160 seems better than reasonable if you account for that.
Second, sending a bad drive back to the manufacturer is a good idea. They redesign to eliminate flaws.
Third, laptop sized drives have always cost 2 to 3 times per GB what 3.5 inch drives cost. Still do.
Lastly, I agree, that they should have wiped the data in front of you.
-Frontier user since 1990 (Mac user since 1986)
You were right saying we don't have much choices, Apple needs some real competition, there is no reason they won't give you back your HD, in my case they could reason it was a free (under AppleCare) service (they offer to sell the broken HD back to me for over $200, before they screwed up!) ...
You have a MacBook, that means you didn't pay extra for AppleCare, I know the argument against paying for it ... but I have owned a few Apple portable computers, AppleCare is essential, nearly every one of those had minor to major issues within the first 3 years ... not that I think that's unique to Apple because I worked with lots of Dell's, Toshiba's and IBM's laptops, they often failed within 3 years, but most of the times they were company leases, so they were covered ...
If you go to crucial.com, you'll see they are selling 4 GB of RAM for this model for $150.
Shocking, really.
I've never been treated by Apple as anything less than an extremely important customer, but all of my Macs were top of the line for their time. Did they charge labor? The local PC shop (well, the reliable and competent one) charges $80 for an hour, with something like a half hour minimum charge. 90 + 40 = $130, minimum. They charge full retail for parts, as well as have an extensive set of tests for every PC that comes in regardless of the purported problem, so I doubt you could get out of there for less than $170, and they dispose of bad parts as standard policy, so it sounds like a reasonable deal to me.
I got a whole motherboard replaced on a Powerbook G4 17" under Applecare, it's worth considering. Otherwise it would have set me back something like $900.
1. Read the damn fine print, already. The old "you didn't warn me" saw doesn't cut it, Dave. How many customers do you think REALLY want their dead hard drives back? In a consumer-oriented installation, mind you, not some geek shop.
2. Did you run Disk Utility from the Boot Disk? You're supposed to be a geek...do a little troubleshooting. It would have told you if the disk had failed, and you could have saved yourself the aggravation. Leading me to...
3. Never pay Apple's price for service parts or upgrades you can buy off the rack. Fifteen minutes at Fry's or Micro Center and you'd have had a much larger hard drive, a fatter wallet (or less skinny, anyway) and less aggravation.
4. Your argument number 3 doesn't stand. They didn't say it was used, just that they couldn't guarantee it was new. Those two aren't explicitly equal.
Finally, just to echo what a few others have said, my experiences with the Genius Bar have been uniformly positive, with some rising to the level of outstanding. One case doesn't make a trend.
You do have to watch Apple. People tend to place them on a pedestal but they're really just another computer company that has managed to make a few decisions better than their peers. I think Leopard clearly shows that they're capable of completely screwing up too. Especially in the hardware arena, it has always been hard to make them admit any sort of culpability. (The SE/30 not being 32-bit clean springs to mind as an example dating from way back.)
And Dave, why are you having them replace a user-replaceable parts if it's not under warranty? MacBooks are the one they finally got it right on--hard drive is about 2 phillips screws away under the battery, IIRC.
tips@consumerist.com
Sure, I had to live on-hold for 4 days to get it and suffer the indignity of allowing an "authorised Apple repair technician" cut my old machine open in front of me in an ill fated attempt to replace the old busted hard drive - which resulting in him breaking the iSight camera and the screen in the process - but eventually Apple realised their responsibility to me and, as I write, I'm up by one brand new machine with another two years still left on it's Apple Care warrantee, and I only had to wait four days for them to deliver it!
Not too shabby.
by a 7K200 Travelstar, put it in your MacBook and it will be like a new computer. The MacBook will be much faster and it will cost you about $200.
Norbert
the 7k200 travelstar + 3 or 4G ram will turn your macbook into a beast.
Nine screws is good engineering? Toshiba - 1 screw. IBM - 1 screw. HP 1 screw.
4 on the external enclosure
3 to access the hd in the macbook
4 on the hd caddy inside the macbook
that's a lot easier than on my old Powerbook G4 or on the current Macbook Pros ;-)
i only have a Dell desktop, no windows laptop, but 1 sounds amazing, you must have forgotten to count the screws on a caddy.
my point: it took me less than 5 min to swap drives with an external enclosure. on my old Powerbook it took me 45 min.
I'd march my ass back in there and demand a new drive. And I'd teach the manager how to read.
Why?
1. Apple may have a warranty agreement with the OEM, and be able to recover something from them.
2. The failed part may be wanted to analyze the failure mode.
3. The failed part may contain Apple proprietary firmware which should not be released.
4. Apple may be able to reduce costs by refurbishing and re-using the part.
5. Apple has an interest in controlling the availability of it's proprietary hardware components.
Regardless, none of this is new; even if it does seem rather silly in the light of a standardized component like a hard drive. You're just always going to take a bath on that; it's just the way it is. Oh, and don't expect to take in your own hard drive. An Apple store generally won't install customer-supplied internal components, for obvious reasons.
http://www.osx86project.org/
In the aerospace and military industry, where people really worry about reliability, almost everything is refurbished continuously and planes fly extremely reliably for more than 20 years. Same in the rail industry.
Why should they put perfectly repairable hard disks into landfills, even though most components (e.g., the chassis, the motor coils, mechanical support parts) inside hardly age, and are indistinguishable from new ones, just to satisfy the fancy and irrational superstitions of a few customers? Just because you find recycling and refurbishing a disgusting idea? I'd worry more about actual reliability figures than in how that reliability is achieved.
Many engineers will tell you that early-life second-hand components are often more reliable than new ones, because that have already survived potential early-onset problems and have thus been tested much better than new ones ("burn in", "bathtub curve").
And you aren't taking into account the security and privacy issues involved. What assurance do we have that they aren't doing anything with the data on the disks? What's the point of having a firewall when all your data is turned over to who-knows-who at what is basically a random moment.
You walked in the door and they were calling your name. Big tip-off. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that one Dave Winer writes code, among other things, and there could very well be some gems on his old hard drive. Could this be the same Dave Winer?
The guy removed the old drive and took it in the back room. It's pretty easy to imagine them immediately mounting it in a special machine to see if the drive was recoverable. And, walla, yes it is.
If the store manager wanted, I'm sure she had some discretion to return the old drive to you. But, that was no longer possible as the drive was promptly packed up and sent by courier to the home office for analysis while you were still in the store!!!
Interesting,
What does simulated crowd noise have to do with anything...? (The word you mangled is "voilà". Learn it, use it, and never again publicly expose your ignorance.)
$160, and they take your old drive.. I'd be pissed too. :(
Lastly - fully agree with you that falling back on small print is lame. Any company loses me as a customer the moment they try this - but in this case that would be the specific repair shop, not "Apple" because I have no idea if that is an Apple imposed policy or just localiseed stupidity..
We are very much novices but we follow you religiously.
We guess that now thinksecret is closed, another one needs to be started :)
A few years back my 14 year old made his first big purchase using money he had saved up: an Apple iPod. He was looking at some cheaper mp3 players, but I advised him to go with Apple, because I remember how well Apple treated their customers Back In The Day.
Within a month the iPod died. It wasn't dropped or anything -- there was not a scratch on it. It just would not power up. When he sent it in for service, Apple responded with a letter saying the iPod's drive was dead due to abuse, and it would cost $150 to replace it, plus shipping.
Now, I consider myself pretty adept at handling such situations, so I phoned Apple for my son, thinking I could reason with them. Nada. Apple was not only utterly inflexible, but astonishingly rude, telling me in effect, to take it or leave it. After 6 weeks of getting nowhere, my son finally shelled out the money to get the thing fixed. When he got back, he immediately sold it on eBay, and bought a less expensive mp3 player from one of Apple's competitors. A year later, that product broke also failed -- but unlike Apple, that company immediately sent a replacement unit, no questions asked.
I've posted about this on numerous Apple forums, and for a while I get lots of sympathetic replies from other people who've had the same experience. But eventually, like all forum threads critical of Apple, the thread disappears.
If you think Daves story is bad... I bought a new IBM t41p in the days they were a great buy. I also bought the full service warranty for the machine - onsite service, the works.
When the HD failed I was told I had to buy and pay for a new copy of Windows XP or buy the IBM recovery disk set. The HD was covered - they came and installed it and handed the machine back to me with a blank disk in it.
Furtunatly for me I had a spare drive that I had cloned my machine on so it wasn't a disaster - but to be told that I had to re-purchase the OS was a shock
If you think Daves story is bad... I bought a new IBM t41p in the days they were a great buy. I also bought the full service warranty for the machine - onsite service, the works.
When the HD failed I was told I had to buy and pay for a new copy of Windows XP or buy the IBM recovery disk set. The HD was covered - they came and installed it and handed the machine back to me with a blank disk in it.
Furtunatly for me I had a spare drive that I had cloned my machine on so it wasn't a disaster - but to be told that I had to re-purchase the OS was a shock
I have only had good experiences, luckily, but I will certainly be vocal and pissed, if this happened to me. A simple case of communication from them before you signed would have helped.
1) They didn't dick me around, they just sent me a new drive, it arrived within 2 days.
2) The drive was new, still in the manufacturer-sealed packaging (the one you have to cut/tear open).
Oh, and since it was still under warranty, I didn't pay a red cent.
1) You got great service if you ask me. You walked in, didn't have to wait for help, and didn't have to wait for a repair. Try getting a Gateway repaired some time.
2) The vast majority of both automotive and computer consumers see their broken part as rubbish and don't want it back. Apple's procedure meets the expectations of the vast majority, and you are in no way required to utilize their services if you're the minority that doesn't want to do business that way.
3) You're on your fourth BMW? So you drive them until their warranty expires then trade up right? Why didn't you cover your Macbook under Applecare for the full time interval you expected to use it? Price out an Out of Warranty BMW repair ($160/hour for shop time) and get back to me on outrageous pricing.
4) I do not think they would have asked you to leave. The sad fact is that American retail employees are so roundly abused and belittled by customers with outrageous demands, they've developed a rather thick skin. I do the same thing at work, and have to stop myself, take a step back, and try to reconnect with the customer. It takes some coaxing, but you can usually get concessions from a retailer by maintaining a reasonable tone of voice and clearly stating what you want from them.
5) Can't really excuse them not telling you up front that you wouldn't get the drive back, that is pretty lame. The cardinal rule of customer service work is to clearly set the customers' expectations so that no one is disappointed later on.
Originally, Apple required owners of broken iPhones to ship the units in for repair if they broke 14 days after purchase. The customer would be without a phone for days while the unit was being shipped back and fourth. There was an uproar, and Apple altered it's policy so that the units would be swapped out the same way iPods and your HDD were (immediately, in-store). I've had several stellar experiences with Mac Geniuses, and I see Apple trying to do the right thing when it becomes clear to them they've goofed. (See also the rebate they offered iPhone customers after dropping the price so dramatically). Fanboy? Yes, but not blindly so.
I managed to insert the new disk upside down and damaged the plastic rails.
So I had to get to a mac agreed repair shop. It took two days and I had to pay 90 for an hour of work. So it costed me around 200 euros.
I realize that if had done everything thru the mac shop it would have costed
me even more than buy macway + the cost of my blunder!
Btw my mac has been in repair one month last year in november, because of
drive shortcoming,
to replace a defectuous disk to eventual discover the new disk was
in the fated serie from Segate
Add on to that a set of small screw drivers (T1 TORX and a #1 philips I think - around £15 all up - I was traveling, so didn't have my usual kit around), and I was done.
Took around 10 mins TOTAL to get the old drive out, the new one in, fire it up and start leopard installing. I guess the apple d00d did a data transfer for you (I hope he did - it's so damn easy on a mac), otherwise thats a serious rip off. Personally, I put the old drives in an USB case, and it just copied it over for me during the install.
That said - if you get it done by them, I still can't see how the old drive isn't yours. If you dont want it - fine, they can dispose of it. But otherwise.....
The fact that they didn't tell you that before you signed the papers then dropped the bomb on you afterwards would have been reason enough for me to never do business with that company again. In fact, I'm going to rethink my own desire to purchase a macbook pro after reading about your experience.
+ if I ever have to take my PC in to be serviced the first thing I'm going to ask is if I get the old components back. If not, I'll just fix it myself or buy another computer.
Thanks for sharing this experience. This is another one to add to my "Heads Up" meter.
As for product quality, Apple is not very good. I've owned Macs since the early 90s, and I must say that the quality of their computers has steadily decreased.
Slot Loading G3 iMac: Something to do with the video card went out a week after warranty and it couldn't run Mac OS or Mac OS X. Three years of running linux later, the power supply went out. Now it's running headless with an ATX power supply. You'll never believe what started working when I swapped out the power supply... Yup, the video card works again!
Late 2001 iBook G3 12": Two hard drives, two power supplies, two display cables/reed switches, and 3 batteries. Need I say more?
PowerBook G4 15" "Hi-Res": Battery *died* after 7 months of average use. Slot on DVD drive sagged to the point where DVDs could not be inserted or ejected, Apple refused to fix. PCMCIA slot eject mechanism broken. Had to have original Logic board replaced after random crashing and general instability. Computer will no longer display serial number in Mac OS X, have to remove the memory slot cover to discover actual serial number.
I won't be buying another Mac until their quality control gets their act together.
Don't let your experience at this store lead you to believe that Apple as a whole treats their customers the way you were treated. I've seen Apple bend over backwards and go so far as replace machines that were beyond their warranty for un-satisfied customers...
Still, It's not unreasonable for someone to want their original harddrive back. Especially in this age of data and identity theft. Apple should at a minimum offer a small fee to get back the original product.
And on the laptop drive price, homie, I'm sorry, an 80GB sata laptop drive starts at $60 brand new. At newegg.com, you can get a 250GB for $150. It's cool for them to screw you on the price, that's expected. But this guy got royally screwed.
Which is why I combat the cult of mac pretty fiercely whenever possible. If I had wads of cash, I would def. purchase one. Alas, no wads.
But, these facts remain:
Apple does NOT love you, no matter how many dorky twentysomethings with whom you identify they place in their ads.
The company's mission is NOT to change the world to a brighter, happier, greener place, unless that involves you using their hardware and software.
As long as you remember that Apple is a large corporation, with their eyes on market domination, you will approach any financial or service transaction with them as one to be mistrusted, and you should be better off for it. Or, at least you'll see the screwing coming.
Taking your MacBook to an Apple Store was your first mistake, the price they quote shows why the number of individual Apple resellers is dwindling. If you paid $160 for the drive, that is only a few dollars more than Apple will charge an independent service center. Did they ever give you a reason why your drive needed replacement?
Apple considers itself a hardware company. The Apple Store exists to sell Apple hardware. Of course they would just replace your hard drive instead of seeing if there was a simple repair. I've seen Apple repair centers replace hard drives for bad software installs
We also used to do work on HP, IBM and Compaq back in the day. All of those companies had a similar policy in effect
Never trust a dude behind a counter, for he has surveillance and mall security.
Obviously, because of my job, I never make my way into the Apple Store, but I know this from what my customers tell me (customers who I am able to spend good time with, even just to check in their computer for service, running through the initial trouble-shooting steps). When you make an appointment at an Apple Store, you are reserving 15 minutes of their time. Then it's on to the next person. In that 15 minutes supposedly they are able to diagnose the hardware in your computer and give you a report, and you are supposed to be happy.
Furthermore, the apple store here in town hates servicing computers, because they have no time to spend on repairs. I don't know the status of Apple Resellers in your city, but if they are an authorized service center, mostly likely they have a dedicated technician (or a few) who do not have to bounce back and forth between repairing computers and helping customers.
Furthermore, it's well known that apple marks up upgrades to their computers. I was laughing the other day at the costs to max out Macbooks on the website. At our local store, we do upgrades in house at far cheaper costs and immediate results for the customer. Because we are Apple Authorized, we do not void the warranty with these upgrades.
I know it's hard, but somehow Apple Stores have to be slightly distinguished from Apple Computer - even though they are the same corporate entity, there seems to be different goals for each branch. Apple Stores are all about moving people through as quickly as possible and reaching typical retail goals. Apple Computer (cupertino) seems much more interested in the highest quality goods and user experience possible; these seem to clash often.
So to sum up my rant, you're right, but it is not the only way to deal with Apple Computer. If you deal with local Apple Authorized resellers, you are working with locally owned stores that will have people in place for you to talk to and deal with if you are unsatisfied. And a lot of times, despite their love of Apple Computers, they are very disgruntled by the way Apple Computer treats them, so they sympathize with your position.
Anyway, i get the computer back and it dies again after 5 months usage ..... (by that time the computer is 2 years old)
So, i call mac and tell them that 3 GRAND for a computer that does not work is really taking the mickey ...... And what response did I get : THE REPLACEMENT PARTS ARE SECOND HAND. So they simply move the problem sideways rather than actually fixing the default ....
I've been very disapointed with apple, i get better customer service on my 12 $ mp3 player .....
Mac's technique is to buy rights from PC progs so you are forced to move over to apple or obliged to rethink years of stable and successfull working routines .... Not fair ! back stabbing and opportuniste ...
I bought a Rolex watch, and wanted to have the face-plate replaced. I picked the replacement, then they kept my original. Plus, billed me for the new face-plate.
Yeah, Apple / Mac is too expensive.
I learned my lesson, I run Linux (Linux Mint Daryna), and everything open source to do all the good things that I do. That is Web Sites, Blogs, etc.
You could not give me a MAC!
JJMacey
www.jjmacey.net
I think that you shouldn't worry so much, and not write inflammatory posts without looking at it from all perspectives. I'm sure that Apple is not starting a data-collection-agency and exclusively focussing on your passwords. Rather the answer is likely much simpler. They are a hardware-company, their hardware was faulty, they collect the faulty hardware to prevent future hardware to be faulty. Wouldn't you want to do something similarly, if you were running a company?
So, perhaps there's a subtle point about your situation that I don't get, but I think this wasn't meant maliciously.
Apple makes their own hard drives?
If I go to a car parts store, and get a new fuel pump, they give me a choice of buying new or buying a rebuilt fuel pump. If I buy a rebuilt fuel pump, there's a core charge, and I can return my old fuel pump and get some cash back.
But they don't just confiscate my old fuel pump without giving me any options in the matter. Seems to me that what the Apple store did constitutes "illegal conversion of property" in most states.
But then, in a company where the chief executive officer awards himself millions of dollars in compensation instead of asking the board of directors to do that, what can you expect? That's why they passed RICO.
I wanted to give myself a MacPro this holiday season, but after reading your experience, will go far away from Apple.
My 9th grade son wants a new lap top, for the first time in 4 plus years I will not be buying apple, I'm going to go costco and buy couple year cheap laptop... A few years ago I would never have done so....apple policy and practice just fucks the loyal customer, well now it is my turn to start returning the favor with my check book! F-Apple....I for one have had enough....!
P.S. I have sent several comments and e-mails of frustration to apple and not once had a reply.....! Cowards!!!!!!
Maybe its the APPLE Repair center you need to boycott, not the company itself. Just take it somewhere else.
I replaced my 12" PB G4 harddrive... its not really very hard... just harder then any other laptop on the market. Most companies have a easy to remove panel that exposes the harddrive. So its obviously part of the racket, they know a certain percentage of drives fail, and they can recoup that cost be stealing your faulty drive, rebuilding it and selling it in another system.
I dont take my merc to the dealership for repair, I get better service at a small local shop.
For a part to get replaced under warranty, the maker wants the bad part back for accounting purposes. The bean counters need an assurance that the company isn't handing out free hard drives like business cards.
The good news here is that the MacBook and MacBook Pro's are designed for easy hard drive removal and replacement. The old PowerBooks and iBooks make the chore tedious, at best.
Recover your data with a cheap USB SATA adapter, buy a larger, faster, hard drive replacement, then take your dead MacBook to Apple for the warranty replacement. When they give back your MacBook, take out the replacement drive and install it in a FireWire case. then install the faster/bigger one in the MacBook. Keep good backups, get on with your life.
Hard Drives will fail. Apple's are no different (actually, they're exactly the same).
http://research.google.com/archive/disk_failure...
First off, 2.5" hard drives cost more than 3.5" hard drives.
• Just because you can get a 500GB 3.5" for X dollars that doesn't translate to any like price for laptop hard drives. The largest 2.5" laptop drive is, I believe, still 250GB anyway so why are you referencing 500GB and 1TB drives other than to prejudice. Your comparison is Apples to Oranges. P.S. If you paid $150 for a 500GB Parallel or SATA drive recently you're an idiot. You can get an enterprise grade [1.5M hours MTBF] SATA for $140, and standard 500s go on sale regularly for under $100.
• You paid $160 for an 80GB drive INSTALLED. A child can swap a drive in a Macbook, they slide right out. That's a lot of an 80GB 160GB drive but not a lot to buy one and have it installed. Take a laptop to Geeksquad and see what it costs.
• You should have demanded the drive back or told them to remove the new drive and void the transaction. Apple, like any other vendor, puts very vague language in their contracts to cover all contingencies. You should be able to get a drive back from any Applestore if you buy one outright [out of warranty]. If this did, in fact, happen to you this is likely an aberration. You should call Apple and ask to talk to a manager. I believe the number is 1-800-sos-apple (yes, that's too many numbers but the trailing e won't dial, it's just easier to remember). I don't work for Apple but I suspect the language is there for expensive parts that can be refurbed easier like Flat Panels.
I support Apple machines, I've done this in Edu for years, sheesh.. over a decade now, but I started young.
Apple has had a lot of Quality Control issues over the recent years as their volume has increased and as they're relied increasingly on commodity asian parts makers and assemblers. The old iBook wiring fiasco immediately comes to mind.
Apple does, however, come through when the chips are down. They've offered extended warranties [eventually] on every QC issue that has occurred, even including the Fans in the G5s that were too loud (not faulty, just loud). I know a LOT of people who have received brand new laptops after 2 or 3 warranty repairs without raising a big stink.
Last time I checked Apple is still rated Top 3 consistently in Customer service. I'm not biased, I think Dell's current support is as good or better.
Contact Apple about this and express your frustration. I suspect that Apple corporate will have a talk with that Genius Bar.
me: ...So if I came in the store a bought your overpriced hard drive without needing a repair, would you install it for me?
genius: Sure.
me: So then don't "replace" my hard drive, just "sell" me one and install it genius!
It happened to be my wife's hard drive who's in real estate and she had over a year's worth of clients' personal financial information... there was no way that hard drive was going to just going to stay there because of some "policy" since a company like Apple should realize that customers may have their own policy which is to "get what you pay for" or "not getting screwed" for starters.
The laptop 2.5 inch drives do tend to cost a bit more than the huge 3.5 inch desktop drives.
But, we get NEW, faster, 7200 rpm drives, with "Corporate" grade warranties of 5 years stamped on their labels. Not double price, though. Usually 1.5X. Hey, memory and drives fluctuate in price like gold, on the daily market!
Our customers return, bringing new customers! Yes, have had about 2 folks per year who would argue with a doorknob, just so they can be "right" and have the last word! Some folks
walk in our door, expecting a big ripoff, and don't respect the school, training, expertise, of real craftsmen, who take pride in our work!
Can't please them all, but, we do strive to please! Some jobs are not worth the investment, and we always give a written estimate on dropoff, under our state laws. We also save ALL the data, using techniques like freezing the bearings, and switching controllers, to get the old burned out drive to run just one last time!
We do the best we can, sometimes recovering data that otherwise would need to go to Drive Savers (whom our customers and we really appreciate!), at greater expense! When I tell you a drive is seized up, and I have no way of recovering your precious data, I recommend Drive Savers.
Digging into some laptops can take two hours of labor, and when done improperly, can destroy delicate circuitry, wiring, parts.
But, we are an INDEPENDENT shop, so can take better care of our customers. Also, you should realize, that in most corporations, the independent shops get charge backs if your system is screwed up by you, after our repair, even though some different trouble happened, just because your unit serial number showed up in the logs twice in 3 months!
That means we get charged back for the first repair to the harddrive, including all parts, when you spilled something or dropped the unit, and bring it to me to check out, within 3 calendar months!
Sometimes we ALL get screwed by corporate policies that are meant to "maximize profits" in order to please the shareholders. There IS a resolution path for consumers, visit Apple.com. Apple has the best record of serving the customers, in comparison to all the other computer makers!
One last thing. Whenever I see the media or consumers comparing a complete Apple, with full load of PRO software, with a Dell, equally fitted with hardware, but, only running trial or nagging short term software, I get so ticked! To complete the Dell, and protect from the million Microsoft Virus/Worms/Malware/bots/Exploits, over $650, usually about $950, must be invested by the poor MS Windows sap, AFTER the initial purchase!
Those who don't know history, are forced to repeat it!
Diagnosis, bad motherboard..... later I ask him to bring it to me... he said it was way to expensive to fix... more to fix than the street value of the laptop... It would not boot.. battery fully charged, I started it up in target mode, I coonect a fire wire to his laptop to my desktop G4 Emac... boot up my G4.... bingo his internal drive mounts.... I access it. an grab all his data -saved his ass- I run a hard drive utility on his hard drive... utility repaired a number of things, I then boot my G4 from his hard drive, Bingo... up and running okay..
I shut down both computers, boot his up.... BINGO up and running..... and still going... a week later he calls and tells me okay to dump his data...
What gives with the Apple Genius?
there was nothing wrong with the motherboard... or the hard drive...
Professor bought us a bottle of wine,,
cost.to fix.. zero
windows and macs...
in spite of these service issues.... which are extremely rare.... I will always choose a mac over windows..
Why? They are way better, less goes wrong with them, easier to learn and use.
The Imacs are the best computers ever made.... you would be foolish to buy anything else...
true there are some problems like you read here... very rare... don't let these problems stop you from buying a MAC... they are way worse on any windows computer...
most computer problems are caused by their owners or their owners friends... most problems have layers of crazy imagination piled on top of them... and most problems are made worse by the owner or their friends...
make friends with mac expert..... most of the Apple Geniuses are very inexperienced kids..
nice kids, smart kids, but mostly inexperienced....
You can not buy a better Computer Than an Mac... especially the new ones..
always buy a factory sealed carton.... get your best price... prices vary so little.. it could be to costly to shop around..
If their name were MS we'd all be out with rakes, stakes, tar and feathers...
Ahhh, but like Adobe, their name starts with an A...so...
you tell me
I enjoy my Apple underwear though ;-)
We had the same problem, I ordered a new disk (non-apple) (the ibook was out of warranty) for $60. Since I had difficulty putting it in, we paid a apple certified tech (but not at an apple store), $90 to put it in. So it cost us around the same ~ $150, but if I had the right tools, it would have only been $60.
Still it was less than the extended service contract. ($250).
Free diagnosis for an out of warranty machine, not a bad service.
Same thing with my iPod... it stated to seize-up, so I took it in... they simply gave me a new one.
ME: So would a reasonable definition of 'fit-for-purpose' be the expectation that these machines would still be working after two years?
APPLE CUSTOMER SERVICE: Sir, you had the choice to buy the Extended Apple Care warranty...
ME: That doesn't sound like a 'choice' to me, that sounds like a 'pre-requisite'.
Both failing with know faults - acknowledged by a Repair Extension Programme (just happens NOT to cover my serial number).
So - verdict. Can I recommend Mac as a reliable (if way overpriced) business machine? Uh - no. Can I recommend Apple's customer service... Uh... No.
It was only after a total of 7.5 hours with three Apple support people did I get a replacement unit. At the end of the first three calls I was told it was an ISP issue. So in addition to the 7.5 hours on the phone with Apple, I was on the phone with my ISP (who gave me better service) to work on the recommendations that Apple made. Finally in addition to that my ISP came to the house and replace a cable modem to prove the point.
When I complained to the Apple technician - Peter - that as he was new I was going to have to go through the complete 2 hour proof to him that I had already done with a prior technician, he ignored the comment and began the sequence. So at the end of two hours when he told me to call the ISP to get them to perform another operation, I said this was going nowhere as I'd have to do the same thing to the next person. It was only then he gave me his phone number to call back (the only one to do so), and when I reported that after all the work with the ISP that I could get a signal without the Apple Base Station (router), and not with it..... he then said Apple would send another unit to be replaced.
So far the new unit has worked the first time.... Too bad I spent all my time on the phone to id that an Apple might have a defective product some times (like the rest of the world). My only consolation is that, as I pointed out to him, Apple had spent way more in hourly expense on technical support than the 185 purchase price of a router.
Best wishes on your Apple equipment. I like my Ipod (60G) and I trust I will like my Airport extreme base station as soon as I can find the network shared hard drive on all my computers.
What you can probably arrange is for them to destroy the HD in front of you before returning it to them. I've seen large companies arrange for this. Even large enterprises have to return failed HDs in order to get replacements.
As for the cost of HDs, I usually buy my HDs separately and get my local Apple dealer to swap it for me. That's much cheaper. Same with RAM and any other generic hardware that Apple uses.
Way back in ancient times... say 1994 - the best part about buying an Apple computer was the fact you never (or rarely) had to deal with Apple. You bought for an Apple authorized dealer. You took it to an Apple authorized repair shop. If one sucked, you typically could find an alternative elsewhere - assuming you lived in a fairly large town.
Often the better retailers and repair shops would work with the customer to make sure they got what they needed... but Apple has this iron clad policies. Apple memory is expensive, but it rarely fails in my experience. Their drives are not bad either... why is an 'old' 80GB drive $160? Probably because several years ago (around the time you bought your drive) that drive was $160 and probably because Apple tests it... but that doesnt mean its bullet proof - or an 'iron clad' drive that will run forever (or even a few years). However this is how Apple justifies the price of the drive. Not that I would justify that... but unfortunately for all the technological innovation Apple creates, some of its policies are stuck in the stone age.
You would have been much better off buying a drive and having a good tech swap them out.. then say running a restore from Time Machine... or Carbon Copy Cloner ... or Tri-Backup ... or something. You could have had your old busted drive (with any recoverable data that may be there) a new faster and market priced drive and all your data back.
Though the drive swap is generally easy, the data restore is not always easy, depending on what you have or what you lack.
Good thing Apple added Time Machine .. for easy backups and (hopefully) easy restores of important data, system files and applications.
One nice feature, that started in 10.3.x is secure erase ... giving you the option (via the Finder) to securely erase files by overwriting them 3 times. Though this is not 100% secure by some measures... you can do a random overwrite of your drive ... up to 35 times via disk utility. While this is secure, you can imagine it will take days to wipe a modern drive and if the drive is not performing up to spec or has failed this wont help you (or if Apple has decided your drive is now their drive)...
Reconditioned hard drive sold and information retrieved.
I have always been a hugh apple fan until now.
go the x86