Scripting News: My name is Dave and I'm a racist (Scripting News)
1938media
· 1 year ago
Welcome to my world Mr. Winer. I went to the "Where are the black tech bloggers" panel at SXSW. The reason they were even there was because of a comedy video I did. I was compared to a child molester. That's the discussion, the conversation. You are going to get crucified for this post. Good for you.
dave
· 1 year ago
Nobody's going to crucify me as long as I got air cover from Obamaman. :-)
that may also have been because your comedy was weak and tired and designed to push buttons.
dave, i like the "i am a racist" pre-disclaimer idea (and let's all change our middle names to Hussein, too).
i want to point out that the comment made up-thread that tries to distinguish racism from racial prejudice in general is a view i've heard before mostly from black folks: that "racism" is something that requires power and dominance and hence "black people can't be racist." in some senses this is a terminology issue, but it's important because if we use the same term to mean two different things (or even two different nuances) it makes it much harder to come to terms.
that definition of racism is what i would call white supremacy, and in my language, anybody can be racist, but those concepts need to be clarified to move forward (and without dismissing or negating that underlying point about power to act on prejudice and society's embedded biases).
1938media
· 1 year ago
My comedy weak? Ouch!
dave
· 1 year ago
Interesting. I didn't see how that way of defining racism makes whites guilty and blacks, by definition, innocent. If that's what's really going on, it's a wedge thing, the kind of stuff Karl Rove does.
xian
· 1 year ago
I may have expressed myself badly. My point is that (just relating personal experience here) some black folks have suggested that "black people cannot be racist" which doesn't make sense if you use the majority definition of racism (roughly: race-oriented prejudice), but can make sense if you take racism to mean something more like "institutional racism enforced by societal norms."
I don't think this is an intentional wedge-issue factor so much as one of the (many) different concepts internalized by communities that have trouble speaking to each other about these very issues.
Mind you, I am not in any way trying to suggest that all white people or all black people subscribe to either of these views, just that there is a tradition of that viewpoint and someone in this thread expressed it.
My name is Christian and I'm racist, sexist, and hidebound in all sorts of ways but doing my best to grow beyond those limitations.
QueenofSpain,Erin Kotecki Vest
· 1 year ago
Sigh. The thing is, whites are everywhere and our voice is the norm for everything-so is the white on the panel really needed? I mean, American culture is white culture-
But for a second here let's agree that so long as we're all having this discussion and educating one another, we can make progress. Which is what I *think* your post boils down too.
And I think it's fair to say we're all prejudice. We all pre-judge. But I'm not sure I buy that we're all racist. That being said I can be very naive.
dave
· 1 year ago
If you don't want to listen, turn away. But this is the United States of America, and we have a First Amendment goddamit, and everyone gets to say what they think. It doesn't say everybody but white people have a right to speak, FYI.
QueenofSpain,Erin Kotecki Vest
· 1 year ago
There are a million people I'd love to say STFU too, but I refrain. Well, that's not true. Mostly I refrain and sometimes I just get so pissed off that I use all caps and type it or yell it anyway.
But fair enough, sure...everyone gets a voice.
You've been getting hung out to dry on a lot of this discussion and I've been defending you, god help me. But I think it's because you truly realize the need for TOTAL honesty here. Not to mention the opportunity we all have to make some REAL break through. I may not always agree but I love that you're not holding back. The abrasive stuff tends to rub me the wrong way sometimes, but on the flipside I do it too-I'm just pissing off an entirely different area of the blogosphere.
I have to say, I wish I saw more this type of honesty in my own communities.
jim kukral
· 1 year ago
To talk about it as you suggest is the first step to solving the issue, agreed. Problem is, there's lots of people who don't want that to happen, for many reasons, mostly bad.
I agree, you're going to get hammered for this post because most people won't really read it. Should have done it in video for quadruple effect.
Peter
· 1 year ago
There is a song from Avenue Q that came to mind when reading this.. "Everyone's a little bit racist". Sad, but true. Strength comes from trying to overcome it. Trying to understand it. Trying not to pass it down to our children.
I don't think we should pretend like it never existed or does not exist. Racism is yet another hard conversation to have with children. Along with sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
liza
· 1 year ago
believe it or not Dave, this is part of what I wasn't able to tell you on our convo the other day. that we are ALL racists because we come out of a worldview regimented by racism ... well, at least our generation. the way my kids are growing up, it's really hard for me to apply the same measure to them.
which goes on to show that racism is not a static worldview, but admitting we do think of people with the filter of race is the first step --much in the same way, btw, many feminists suggest that we all are mysogynists as well.
i grew up as an antisemite and i didn't even know it because i didn't know any jewish people in Puerto Rico. there's many everyday expressions in Spanish that are normal to us but to a Jewish person it is flat out antisemitic. it took me coming to the US and having a Jewish college roommate to understand what antisemitism is all about. so i personally always start out of the assumption that i am not only antisemitic but racist, sexist and sometimes a mysoginist.
i was trying to explain that the other day but i guess you needed to come to it on your own.
congratulations.
and, btw, i still don't see anything on the video clips of jeremiah wright that i would consider racist. gringo-bashing? yeah, sure. but not racist.
and while we are at it, it would be also good to move beyond black and white and to include latinos and asians and native americans and to also consider how our ethnic backgrounds affect how we see others and the world around us.
but this is a start :)
dave
· 1 year ago
Yes, Liz, it's a start. The next step is for to introduce yourself. My name is Liz...
mturro
· 1 year ago
Are you a racist - or are you racially prejudiced? There is a difference. Racism brings with it a connotation of action, of power, of ability to actually do something to harm the station of others because you simply don't like their race. The term "racist" gets thrown around an awful lot these days and while I am all for acknowledging our racial prejudices, I'd exercise some caution with regard to the use of the term racism.
To me at least, racism = prejudice + power
Still - as always - your political gusto inspires me - keep it coming.
dave
· 1 year ago
I said I was a racist because I wanted to tell you about the stuff I talk about privately when I talk about race with family and friends, and I didn't want to defend against accusations that I'm a racist. I think everyone is a racist. It was like the other day when they were making a big deal about Obama's middle name. Okay, so let's all change our middle name to Hussein. Who gives a shit what you call me. I want to go places, solve problems, have fun. Tired of all the figner pointing, what a gross waste of time.
xian
· 1 year ago
note: It was mturro's comment that I was referring to - looks like it's actually "down thread" from mine....
loren gets points for being funny in his reply to mine ragging on his comedy.
Ontario Emperor
· 1 year ago
I agree, to a point, with your thesis, although I think that "the man" and "the do-gooder" views are perhaps an overgeneralization.
Perhaps it's important to note WHY we're all racists. Quite simply, we're more comfortable with people who are like us than with people who are not like us. Put me, a white Christian conservative heterosexual male, in a room with a black Buddhist progressive lesbian, and I am going to be inclined to feel some discomfort. This is not a good thing, but I believe it is a natural inclination of humankind. And in some (not all) cases, if you attempt to fight it by overcompensating (i.e. "Today I'm gonna be diverse!"), you're still guilty of racism or sexism or whatever, since you're still making distinctions based on race, sex, etc.
Part of the problem is when we generalize a group and assume that it is monolithic. For example, there was a period of time when people thought that you could get the pulse of the black community by talking to an actor, a sports figure, a university professor, and a politician. No group, even Jim Jones' People's Temple group, is monolithic.
Good post.
Kevitivity
· 1 year ago
Why are democrats in general so obsessed with race?
dave
· 1 year ago
I'm not a Democrat. Why are you obsessed with Democrats? :-)
Krish
· 1 year ago
@Kevitivity
If Republicans can be obsessed with negative discrimination part of the race, whatz wrong with democrats obsessed with positive discrimination part? If republicans can talk about Southern White Pride and get away with it, whatz wrong with democrats talking about black pride. Your question shows clearly that you are obsessed with race than the democrats.
dave
· 1 year ago
Forget it, we're all obsessed with race. Disclaim it. Celebrate your inner-racist. It's a holiday from angst. Let it all go.
Paul
· 1 year ago
As a Connecticut Republican, I don't think anybody should get away with the kind of Southern White Pride where you can fly the flag of what is essentially a defeated enemy of the United States of America, never mind what else it stands for.
Maybe this is an 80/20 problem. I'll agree with Dave that I'm a racist, because I sometimes overgeneralize and stereotype. Sometimes (not all the time) I get lazy and let this happen even though I know better. There are different triggers: skin color, hair color, national origin, sex, religion, accent, political affiliation, operating system choice, which web browser you prefer. Mostly I don't say anything offensive or try to treat them different but I find myself to be more guarded in my interactions with them. Especially the IE users. Take that as "less willing to trust" and I'm not talking about crossing to the other side of the street, I mean I may not bring up certain topics of conversation in front of some people because I think I'm being polite, sensitive to their feelings, but maybe I'm not helping the situation any. On the other hand maybe it comes across as patronizing and I don't mean it to. I'm sure at some level it can be perceived by others. Being able to ask a question: no really, why DO you like to eat that kind of food? would break down some barriers that really shouldn't be there to begin with. We're all too sensitive. Talk is a good idea.
Whether or not we mean to, by generalizing and stereotyping we mask and reinforce the 20% or less of real acts of racism and discrimination. This goes back and forth (as a Republican, I get lumped in with some pretty bad characters).
We can keep letting this go on, or get conscious about it. We can let Wright's words tear the country apart, or we can listen a little harder to what Obama was saying. Those are the words that should be replayed over and over. We can be proud in our own skin, but we need to come together, clear the air of the 80% of this which is not important, focus on fixing the rest, and be proud as Americans.
Herb
· 1 year ago
"In all my years, I've only heard two images of whites from blacks."
If that's the only two images you've heard, than you must not know a lot of black folk.
Im addition to being a long-time reader of your blog, I saw you in person once (Harvard bloggers meeting) - based on what little I know of you I don't think you're an oppressor. But getting back to the Sunday gang discussion, you being wealthy and white gives you advantages over me as a middle-class black male - just the same that me being a male gives be certain societal advantages over Liza because she is a woman.
This all comes back to what Obama was saying - we all have our (real of perceived) issues and we have to recognize the truth behind those views. I don't see that strawman agruments like "so much for black people not being racists" gets us closer to that goal.
I know the popular media portrayal is that all blacks walk in lockstep behind Sharpton, Jackson, Wright and Farrakhan but the reality is that there are 37 million of us and we have a diverse set of views. For every "blame whitey" firebrand there is a "clean our own house" speaker like Bill Cosby. And a lot of the things that have been discussed this past week is the same thing that has been discussed in inner-city barbershops for as long as I remember.
bbebop
· 1 year ago
H.L. Mencken (white guy, possibly a racist, but who cares) famously said, parphrasing now, "for every complicated problem, there's a simple solution -- and it's wrong." I think Dave is both simplistic and wrong, on so many levels. Dave's a racist? Bullshit! Intellectually lazy? Absolutely!
dave
· 1 year ago
I think listening is a good thing. Sometimes you have to shake the tree hard to make the nuts fall out. But I like you. And thanks for the support. :-)
bbluesman
· 1 year ago
Dave I respect and appreciate what you're trying to do here. Good application of your abundant chutzpah and I really feel you are bringing the conversation forward, a conversation which needs more light and air on it. I am a musical person-and there have been some works with lyrics that get all the taboo words out both black and white in a musical fashion with a beat. Maybe it's easier that way. I really appreciate Senator Obama for his moxie and even if he doesn't get elected he made me a better person and a better American for what he shared.
I also have a hell of a lot of respect for him standing by his pastor conflicted or otherwise. If we only maintained relationships based on correctness or agreement with our own concepts we'd have very few relationships to maintain at the end of the day.
So the DNA of this conversation is my RSS of today. :)
You're wrong when you say "there is no third view of whites in black folklore." Take, for example, Spike Lee's movie, "Do the Right Thing." Look at the way it portrays white people. The white owners of the pizzeria in the movie don't fit either of your "two images of whites from blacks." The pizzeria owner is a working guy who isn't particularly "privileged" and isn't an oppressor either. In fact, he goes out of his way to forgive a lot of crap from his black employee and from some of the black customers in his neighborhood. He isn't a "silly do-good liberal" either. He's pragmatic, practical and hard-nosed at times, and he isn't "looking for approval," "trying to be hip," or "naive and shallow."
Spike Lee certainly isn't unique in this regard. Bill Cosby, another prominent figure in black culture, has repeatedly offered similar nuance and understanding when he has spoken of race.
You're therefore making a straw man argument. You've found a couple of images that you considered objectionable in the way some blacks talk about whites sometimes, and you've generalized from those examples to make the argument that all blacks think and talk this way.
Of course, somewhere in all of this you ought to also recognize that the images you deplore have a basis in actual lived experience for many black people. They DO get pulled over more often by police for "driving while black." (I had a conversation awhile ago with a white state trooper who told me that he does this.) I wonder how many times you would have to experience something like that before you would feel the kind of anger that you find so objectionable from black people.
Maybe you think it's unfair that this anger sometimes gets generalized to include you, when you yourself have never detained a black driver or used a choke hold to subdue someone you were arresting. Maybe that's unfair to you. Boo hoo. Racism sucks at both ends of the divide, but I still don't think you're getting the short end of the stick.
dave
· 1 year ago
Ouch. You were doing so well up to the "straw man" point.
I wrote what I knew about. I laid myself out, fully vulnerable, and the best you can do is "suck it up and accept our hate" because of the color of my skin.
You should begin your next comment with "My name is Sheldon and I'm a racist" because, dude, you so are racist.
SheldonRampton
· 1 year ago
I would accept that judgment if you could explain how anything I said could plausibly be construed as racist.
It *is* a straw man argument for you to claim that all black people think a certain way, particularly since as my Spike Lee example illustrates, it is abundantly clear that this is not true. I think you know what a straw man argument is, and this is a textbook example. I don't see how it's racist for me to point that out.
You're also deliberately misconstruing my words when you claim I argued that you should "suck it up and accept our hate" because of the color of your skin. I never used the word hate. I used the word "anger." There's a difference. I think you know the difference, or at least you ought to, since there's a lot of obvious anger in your own tone.
What I ACTUALLY wrote is that there is a "basis in actual lived experience" for the anger that some black people express. I also wrote that "maybe that's unfair to you" when you experience it. Barack Obama made the same point in his speech, and since I gather that you're an Obama supporter (as am I), maybe you'll accept the point from him.
As for your claim that you "wrote what I knew about," one of the things that I find striking about your commentaries so far regarding race is how *little* they convey of any of your own personal experiences. Aside from some sweeping generalizations about how blacks are always hating on whites, you haven't described a single instance in which a black person has actually done anything hateful to you. You seem awfully aggrieved for someone who doesn't have any specific grievances to report.
One point of clarification: You seem to have assumed somehow that I am black. I get this impression from your attempt to claim that I said you should "accept our hate." I don't know why you would use the word "our" in this context unless you think I belong to the group of "blacks who hate whites." It happens, however, that I'm blonde and blue-eyed, of Scandinavian, French and British extraction.
dave
· 1 year ago
The best way to test it is to flip around one of your statements and see if you think it would be racist if a white person made a generalization about blacks. Start with...
"Maybe you think it's unfair that this anger sometimes gets generalized to include you, when you yourself have never detained a black driver or used a choke hold to subdue someone you were arresting."
Let's try flipping it around.
"Maybe you think it's unfair that this anger sometimes gets generalized to include you, when you yourself have never mugged or raped an old defenseless white woman on a dark street to pay for your heroin addiction."
Racist or not?
Sheldon, this would be a *good* place to cop to your racism, cause no one here will hold it against you.
Sheldon Rampton
· 1 year ago
That's not "flipping it around." I stated that police are more likely to pull over black drivers than white drivers. That's a demonstrable fact, and it's something that happens SOLELY BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. Your so-called "flipped-around" example would only be analogous if you had some reason for claiming that black haroin addicts are in the habit of raping "old defenseless white women" BECAUSE of the white color of their skin. (In fact, the evidence tells us the opposite. Most of the victims of black crimes are other blacks, not whites.)
Moreover, police are authority figures. Society puts guns in their hands and generally supports them in their use of force. They have the backing of state power behind them. That's quite different from the behavior of drug addicts, who don't have that kind of backing. When police behave in the fashion I described, it provides a basis in "actual lived experience" for some black people to believe that whites are, as you put it, "The man. We control everything. We're privileged. The oppressor. We coordinate to keep blacks out, to keep blacks down." I don't see how the actions of your hypothetical heroin addict (or, for that matter, of the person who actually mugged you in Jamaica) could possibly provide a basis in actual lived experience for anyone to conclude that blacks are privileged oppressors in American society.
In short, your attempt to prove some point by "flipping around" statements is deceptive because it suppresses the ways that people with dark skins actually get treated differently in our society than white people. I remember going shopping once with a Pakistani friend (then a graduate student, currently a professor of linguistics) and seeing a shopkeeper tell him to get out of the store because it was "obvious that you aren't going to buy anything." I don't think that sort of thing happens very often to white people. In fact, I've yet to see you produce an example from your personal experience of ever being mistreated because of the color of your skin.
dave
· 1 year ago
You that I haven't told any stories about my experience of being mistreated because of the color of my skin, but you haven't told any stories of your own. You've been telling other people's stories.
Re the rest of it, sorry I think I've tried the best I can to show you your racism. I find your generalizations about white people offensive, as a white person. I meant it when I said "ouch."
SheldonRampton
· 1 year ago
I haven't made ANY generalizations about white people. YOU'RE the one who insists on making generalizations about people, and in fact brags about your newfound "freedom" to do so. ("Let us make generalizations about blacks and whites the way blacks always have. ... In all my years, I've only heard two images of whites from blacks.")
I haven't told any stories about being mistreated because of the color of my skin because it hasn't happened to me. The worst experience I ever had with black people happened 20+ years ago when I accidentally got off the subway in the middle of an all-black part of Brooklyn and didn't have money to get back on, so I had to walk home through an all-black neighborhood. Nothing happened to me except that some black kids hooted, "I think you're in the wrong neighborhood." That's pretty mild. In general when I've had dealings with people with dark skins, they've been as friendly and polite as the white people I know, and race isn't usually the topic we discuss. (The last conversation I had with a black guy was about whether he should use PayPal on his website.)
Of course, I've also had conversations with blacks where the issue of race is discussed, sometimes in a challenging way. For example, I was raised Mormon, and until 1979 the Mormon Church had a formal policy (known informally as the "Negro doctrine") which refused to allow blacks into their priesthood. When I was in high school, back around 1973, a black kid in my gym class came up to me and said, rather angrily, "I hear that Mormons think black people aren't allowed into heaven. Is that true?" It was an embarrassing and awkward moment for me, but I don't think it was "racist" for him to bring it up (even though he got the doctrine a little wrong). I had never agreed personally with the "Negro doctrine," so it felt a little unfair that he was putting me on the spot about it, but it's easy for me to understand his anger (and I'm rather proud that an uncle of mine was excommunicated from the church for protesting against the Negro doctrine).
As near as I can figure, you seem to think that the way I should have answered the black kid in my gym class would have been to call him a bigot, complain that all black people think alike about Mormons, and "flipping around" his statement by pointing out that Malcolm X once referred to white people as devils.
dave
· 1 year ago
I think we all have racist thoughts and ideas, which some of us give voice to, and others don't. Maybe you have cleansed yourself, in which case congrats, but many of us still have work to do. On the other hand, if I disclaim that I have them, I can stop arguing about whether I have them or not. I do have them. That was the point of all my writing, and I think it worked for some people, and not for others. Now I'm going to move on to other topics. Peace brother. :-)
SheldonRampton
· 1 year ago
This is of course a very minor point, but I don't think "disclaim" means what you think it means.
I think you need to do a follow up post. Now you've liberated yourself from political correctness, what do you think needs to be said exactly?
dave
· 1 year ago
Not sure what comes next for me, but I'd like to see more people do equivalent posts, make the disclaimer, and then say what you have to say about race.
Sven
· 1 year ago
I agree with what coulter is saying. He can give a good speech but the hypocrisy, makes me very uneasy about him.
Herb
· 1 year ago
Name one politician that isn't a hypocrite. Heck, name one American (non-native) who's not a hypocrite.
I can tolerate some measure of hypocrisy - otherwise I would have killed myself a long time ago. The issue is whether or not you believe Obama's larger goals are good or bad for the country.
Sven
· 1 year ago
Okay I'll name one -George W Bush. I personally think the most effective leaders are ones that have binary views of the world. They get things done. As much as everyone loves to criticize Bush about all their problems he has been an effective leader. His problem - bad luck - 9/11 and CDO's. When he leaves office in Jan, he leaves this country a much safer place, which cant be said for Bill Clinton if you read what the 9/11 commision report had to say. I greatly doubt we would have the security we take for granted these days, if Al Gore had come to power. The economy was booming up until august, that was with two wars being run for five years. The reason for the downturn was bunch of 'smart' phd types in the ibanks of wall street inventing instruments whose risk no one understood. Unfortunately, I dont think there is much difference between Clinton, Obama or McCain. None of them imo will be very effective leaders.
Herb
· 1 year ago
George W. Bush, September 13 2001: "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden"
George W. Bush, March 13, 2002: "I don't know where bin Laden is. It's not that important."
Sven
· 1 year ago
When you put a scentence in quotes it implies he said it, when in fact those weren't his words but your own biased creation. He did say he didnt know where Osama was. He also said, "I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban." "He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we find a training camp, we'll take care of it -- either we will or our friends will."
And since I dont hate Bush for the sake of hating him - I read the above as - We have turned Osama into an incapable non functioning non-entity. An acceptable state of affairs imho given the realities on ground(Pakistan-Afghanistan border).
There is a big difference between saying he is not important and saying we have made him unimportant. Or do we need to have a 'just words' debate.
It is reasonable to assume the US has the best trained and best equipped units in the world out there looking for him. And if they havent been able to locate Osama its only because it isn't easy.
Its very easy to mock/hate/ridicule Bush but do it right next time.
khodabakchian
· 1 year ago
Dave,
Is it really about racism or it is about discrimination? The problem is that we tend to believe that we leave in a zero sum game: if we invest in improving the health care system and health system of under privileged people, then this must be a lost for people whose tax are being increased.
What is really interesting about Barack Obama is that he can inspire people and help them shift their perception.
-Edwin
swhitley
· 1 year ago
I consider myself a recovering racist and maybe that's why I'm so passionate about this topic. (Watch out for the born-again believers.) It might also have to do with the fact that my children are bi-racial. For the past 17 years, I've had to be on guard and speak out when whites have crossed the line, joking about going down to Georgia and getting some slaves, or repeating an off-color OJ Simpson joke. We may not have owned slaves in this generation, but we still own most of the opportunities in America. Even with affirmative action, etc., minorities are still at a disadvantage. Why? Because much of success is determined by who you know and how you interact with others. Yes, exceptional people can overcome racism, but it's a constant struggle, especially now because whites often want to deny that the barriers still exist.
In everyday life, black people are treated differently. So we have a chicken-and-egg problem. Are they treated differently because they act a certain way, or do they act a certain way because they're treated differently? My wife is a black woman. She notices how some white people won't approach her because they find black people foreign in some way. She experiences this with the elementary-school moms. That type of behavior changes a person, affects your willingness to join groups and decreases your desire to participate where you are often made to feel you aren't wanted.
Where are the black tech bloggers? It's not really the right question to ask. How are we, perhaps unwittingly, excluding people from areas such as technology at the very beginning? You'll probably be quick to claim that you've never excluded anyone, but we naturally seek out people who are similar to us. Maybe there was a black child in the class who could have become the next great tech blogger, but he didn't have anyone with which to share his ideas, to foster that love of technology and writing. It's very easy to say that 'they' have the same opportunities when in fact it's just not true.
We're all racists. Slavery had a huge impact and is still affecting this country. We have to figure out how we're going to stop putting this problem on other people and start working on our own behavior. We must stop spouting racial jokes, stop using the *n* word, and end the idea that being racially sensitive is being politically correct. If we each focus on ourselves, and change just a little, we might be able to make the progress that America needs.
TalentSynch
· 1 year ago
Just wanted to send a BIG thank you for the content you've been creating and sharing around the race dialogue. I find it very refreshing, candid, authentic and courageous. I discovered your writings via a twitter feed several days ago and am now a regular reader and follower. I find I'm relying less and less on traditional media sources each day as I discover more brilliant thinkers like yourself.
Thanks for the dialogue!!! Susan @talentsynch on twitter
TalentSynch
· 1 year ago
I guess I should clarify my thinking around dialogue. I believe that candid, authentic dialogue is what moves people to action and that's what gets stuff done. Dialogue facilitates change, stimulates the mind and challenges beliefs - some that have been buried along the way. So, perhaps its more appropriate to thank you for a bit of an awakening that is challenging how I see the world today and what I want to see differently tomorrow.
Susan
teehemkay
· 1 year ago
Hi, people call me tmk, and I'm a racist.
racism |ˈrāˌsizəm|
- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief
I'm free of prejudices though. I dislike everyone equally.
Here's what I think.
Being racist is a characteristic of the human race as a whole regardless of color or any other attributes. The problem is being racist *and* having (all the) power. That's the differentiating characteristic of white racism vs. black racism, non-arab israeli racism vs. palestinian racism, immigrant racism vs. native racism (e.g. in Brazil), etc.
If the the balance of power was inverted, it would produce similar effects (e.g. black people engaging in slavery of white people etc).
If one is from the racist-with-power side, it doesn't matter how clever or educated or compassionate or whatever she is. She simply can't appreciate what it is like to be from the other side. It has everything to do with the experience of being from the other side. In the same way that one cannot "understand" a culture in reference to another one. You have to live it. So people in power might as well stop pretending they understand. They. do. not.
= tmk =
Kevitivity
· 1 year ago
This argument that Obama is using, that "everyone is a racist" so you should give me a pass, is really pathetic and unbecoming of someone seeking the presidency. It's an interesting argument, discussion wise, but Obama sought out this racist and anti-American church. He got the title of his book, "The Audacity of Hope," from Rev. Jeremiah Wright. And now with some of the Church's bulletins coming out - most recently the pro Hamas documents, one gets the feeling that Obama thinks we are all chumps. The man has been a member of this temple of hate for over 20 years!!!
davidlynch79
· 1 year ago
I have seen enough of these fucking posts, Obama is being swift-boated, and made to seem un-American, just as John Kerry was for, being called a un-hero who put his men at risk. America is pathetic, not because Wright is upset, but because Bush supports torture, and so does McCain. For some reason he went along with the legislation one month ago. How the media, can do this, and I don't watch the media, is a tragedy.
Kevitivity
· 1 year ago
You may want to blame Bush. Others blame FOX news. Still, other will blame "neocons". Take your pick.
Or you could face reality?
davidlynch79
· 1 year ago
I blame all 3 and you because you are a bush supporter, arent you? Face reality? Tell me, what you mean, is that just an empty response? Reality is 50% of Americans vote for someone who is a failure, and trying to avoid how our government works. STFU, unless you have something useful to say.
nobbl
· 1 year ago
To begin with, there is only one human race. Genetics show, that your white neighbour may be more different from you as a black man in Uganda. So people adopt to external circumstances, but genetical we are all nearly equal. Yes there are differences, but they lie not in the race!
Norbert
Josh
· 1 year ago
This is certainly a subject worthy of open dialogue and I appreciate your thoughts but I can't agree with this line:
"Let us make generalizations about blacks and whites the way blacks always have"
No, let's not do that. It seems obvious to me that making generalizations based on skin colour is the behaviour that needs addressing, not expanding.
We're all different, all have our own hang ups and prejudices but none of us is the same and sweeping generalisations, be it on race, gender, religion or sexual preference is, I think, the cause of most of the resentment (on all sides).
We should call out individuals who are displaying bigotry, not make new generalisations.
dave
· 1 year ago
That's like saying "Let's make software with lots of bugs in it."
It's kind of an ironic, almost humorous statement, if you don't think a bug is the end of the world.
Which I don't. Software engineers always create bugs. And people always make generalizations about each other, mostly unfair. I've noticed however that blacks do it openly, on radio and TV, and this is considered fair, but whites have to do it in private.
You may think (as you say) that we should all stop, and I might even agree, but I don't have the power to make it stop. So I choose to accept it, and I think in doing so, we'll be better prepared to deal with it when it happens.
Matt
· 1 year ago
I hope, in that same vein, that the lot of white people improves, too. I like that as well. Barak's so dubbed "race speech" was, to me, a vital turning point in his campaign... words words words... then, all of a sudden... WORDS. Honest, brave, thought provoking words, words that other politicians are afraid of. It only strengthens my obsessive support of Senator Obama and confirms my notion that the reason I like him so much IS because of his words. The same thing I dislike about the rest of the candidates, their spiteful, wicked words. So thanks to them, and their pointing out the fact that Barack Obama can stand proud on his words, his words inspire people and give them hope. Nothing makes me more angry as a patriot than to hear an elected representative of the people bad-mouth hope. Bring on the race debate, it's about time... he is proving that change can happen. We are already witnessing change... to lose this momentum at such a vital time would be heartbreaking... tragic.
bernieg1
· 1 year ago
That blacks commit more crimes against blacks is a misleading statistic. Obviously because blacks live among other blacks they tend to commit more black on black crimes. But to see the true racist component in crime we need to see if blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks: Black murder of Whites is twice that of White murders of Blacks. Read Why The MSM doesn`t Report Black on White Murders
All Comments
dave, i like the "i am a racist" pre-disclaimer idea (and let's all change our middle names to Hussein, too).
i want to point out that the comment made up-thread that tries to distinguish racism from racial prejudice in general is a view i've heard before mostly from black folks: that "racism" is something that requires power and dominance and hence "black people can't be racist." in some senses this is a terminology issue, but it's important because if we use the same term to mean two different things (or even two different nuances) it makes it much harder to come to terms.
that definition of racism is what i would call white supremacy, and in my language, anybody can be racist, but those concepts need to be clarified to move forward (and without dismissing or negating that underlying point about power to act on prejudice and society's embedded biases).
I don't think this is an intentional wedge-issue factor so much as one of the (many) different concepts internalized by communities that have trouble speaking to each other about these very issues.
Mind you, I am not in any way trying to suggest that all white people or all black people subscribe to either of these views, just that there is a tradition of that viewpoint and someone in this thread expressed it.
My name is Christian and I'm racist, sexist, and hidebound in all sorts of ways but doing my best to grow beyond those limitations.
But for a second here let's agree that so long as we're all having this discussion and educating one another, we can make progress. Which is what I *think* your post boils down too.
And I think it's fair to say we're all prejudice. We all pre-judge. But I'm not sure I buy that we're all racist. That being said I can be very naive.
But fair enough, sure...everyone gets a voice.
You've been getting hung out to dry on a lot of this discussion and I've been defending you, god help me. But I think it's because you truly realize the need for TOTAL honesty here. Not to mention the opportunity we all have to make some REAL break through. I may not always agree but I love that you're not holding back. The abrasive stuff tends to rub me the wrong way sometimes, but on the flipside I do it too-I'm just pissing off an entirely different area of the blogosphere.
I have to say, I wish I saw more this type of honesty in my own communities.
I agree, you're going to get hammered for this post because most people won't really read it. Should have done it in video for quadruple effect.
I don't think we should pretend like it never existed or does not exist. Racism is yet another hard conversation to have with children. Along with sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
which goes on to show that racism is not a static worldview, but admitting we do think of people with the filter of race is the first step --much in the same way, btw, many feminists suggest that we all are mysogynists as well.
i grew up as an antisemite and i didn't even know it because i didn't know any jewish people in Puerto Rico. there's many everyday expressions in Spanish that are normal to us but to a Jewish person it is flat out antisemitic. it took me coming to the US and having a Jewish college roommate to understand what antisemitism is all about. so i personally always start out of the assumption that i am not only antisemitic but racist, sexist and sometimes a mysoginist.
i was trying to explain that the other day but i guess you needed to come to it on your own.
congratulations.
and, btw, i still don't see anything on the video clips of jeremiah wright that i would consider racist. gringo-bashing? yeah, sure. but not racist.
and while we are at it, it would be also good to move beyond black and white and to include latinos and asians and native americans and to also consider how our ethnic backgrounds affect how we see others and the world around us.
but this is a start :)
To me at least, racism = prejudice + power
Still - as always - your political gusto inspires me - keep it coming.
loren gets points for being funny in his reply to mine ragging on his comedy.
Perhaps it's important to note WHY we're all racists. Quite simply, we're more comfortable with people who are like us than with people who are not like us. Put me, a white Christian conservative heterosexual male, in a room with a black Buddhist progressive lesbian, and I am going to be inclined to feel some discomfort. This is not a good thing, but I believe it is a natural inclination of humankind. And in some (not all) cases, if you attempt to fight it by overcompensating (i.e. "Today I'm gonna be diverse!"), you're still guilty of racism or sexism or whatever, since you're still making distinctions based on race, sex, etc.
Part of the problem is when we generalize a group and assume that it is monolithic. For example, there was a period of time when people thought that you could get the pulse of the black community by talking to an actor, a sports figure, a university professor, and a politician. No group, even Jim Jones' People's Temple group, is monolithic.
Good post.
If Republicans can be obsessed with negative discrimination part of the race, whatz wrong with democrats obsessed with positive discrimination part? If republicans can talk about Southern White Pride and get away with it, whatz wrong with democrats talking about black pride. Your question shows clearly that you are obsessed with race than the democrats.
Maybe this is an 80/20 problem. I'll agree with Dave that I'm a racist, because I sometimes overgeneralize and stereotype. Sometimes (not all the time) I get lazy and let this happen even though I know better. There are different triggers: skin color, hair color, national origin, sex, religion, accent, political affiliation, operating system choice, which web browser you prefer. Mostly I don't say anything offensive or try to treat them different but I find myself to be more guarded in my interactions with them. Especially the IE users. Take that as "less willing to trust" and I'm not talking about crossing to the other side of the street, I mean I may not bring up certain topics of conversation in front of some people because I think I'm being polite, sensitive to their feelings, but maybe I'm not helping the situation any. On the other hand maybe it comes across as patronizing and I don't mean it to. I'm sure at some level it can be perceived by others. Being able to ask a question: no really, why DO you like to eat that kind of food? would break down some barriers that really shouldn't be there to begin with. We're all too sensitive. Talk is a good idea.
Whether or not we mean to, by generalizing and stereotyping we mask and reinforce the 20% or less of real acts of racism and discrimination. This goes back and forth (as a Republican, I get lumped in with some pretty bad characters).
We can keep letting this go on, or get conscious about it. We can let Wright's words tear the country apart, or we can listen a little harder to what Obama was saying. Those are the words that should be replayed over and over. We can be proud in our own skin, but we need to come together, clear the air of the 80% of this which is not important, focus on fixing the rest, and be proud as Americans.
If that's the only two images you've heard, than you must not know a lot of black folk.
Im addition to being a long-time reader of your blog, I saw you in person once (Harvard bloggers meeting) - based on what little I know of you I don't think you're an oppressor. But getting back to the Sunday gang discussion, you being wealthy and white gives you advantages over me as a middle-class black male - just the same that me being a male gives be certain societal advantages over Liza because she is a woman.
This all comes back to what Obama was saying - we all have our (real of perceived) issues and we have to recognize the truth behind those views. I don't see that strawman agruments like "so much for black people not being racists" gets us closer to that goal.
I know the popular media portrayal is that all blacks walk in lockstep behind Sharpton, Jackson, Wright and Farrakhan but the reality is that there are 37 million of us and we have a diverse set of views. For every "blame whitey" firebrand there is a "clean our own house" speaker like Bill Cosby. And a lot of the things that have been discussed this past week is the same thing that has been discussed in inner-city barbershops for as long as I remember.
I also have a hell of a lot of respect for him standing by his pastor conflicted or otherwise. If we only maintained relationships based on correctness or agreement with our own concepts we'd have very few relationships to maintain at the end of the day.
So the DNA of this conversation is my RSS of today. :)
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2...
Dave
Spike Lee certainly isn't unique in this regard. Bill Cosby, another prominent figure in black culture, has repeatedly offered similar nuance and understanding when he has spoken of race.
You're therefore making a straw man argument. You've found a couple of images that you considered objectionable in the way some blacks talk about whites sometimes, and you've generalized from those examples to make the argument that all blacks think and talk this way.
Of course, somewhere in all of this you ought to also recognize that the images you deplore have a basis in actual lived experience for many black people. They DO get pulled over more often by police for "driving while black." (I had a conversation awhile ago with a white state trooper who told me that he does this.) I wonder how many times you would have to experience something like that before you would feel the kind of anger that you find so objectionable from black people.
Maybe you think it's unfair that this anger sometimes gets generalized to include you, when you yourself have never detained a black driver or used a choke hold to subdue someone you were arresting. Maybe that's unfair to you. Boo hoo. Racism sucks at both ends of the divide, but I still don't think you're getting the short end of the stick.
I wrote what I knew about. I laid myself out, fully vulnerable, and the best you can do is "suck it up and accept our hate" because of the color of my skin.
You should begin your next comment with "My name is Sheldon and I'm a racist" because, dude, you so are racist.
It *is* a straw man argument for you to claim that all black people think a certain way, particularly since as my Spike Lee example illustrates, it is abundantly clear that this is not true. I think you know what a straw man argument is, and this is a textbook example. I don't see how it's racist for me to point that out.
You're also deliberately misconstruing my words when you claim I argued that you should "suck it up and accept our hate" because of the color of your skin. I never used the word hate. I used the word "anger." There's a difference. I think you know the difference, or at least you ought to, since there's a lot of obvious anger in your own tone.
What I ACTUALLY wrote is that there is a "basis in actual lived experience" for the anger that some black people express. I also wrote that "maybe that's unfair to you" when you experience it. Barack Obama made the same point in his speech, and since I gather that you're an Obama supporter (as am I), maybe you'll accept the point from him.
As for your claim that you "wrote what I knew about," one of the things that I find striking about your commentaries so far regarding race is how *little* they convey of any of your own personal experiences. Aside from some sweeping generalizations about how blacks are always hating on whites, you haven't described a single instance in which a black person has actually done anything hateful to you. You seem awfully aggrieved for someone who doesn't have any specific grievances to report.
One point of clarification: You seem to have assumed somehow that I am black. I get this impression from your attempt to claim that I said you should "accept our hate." I don't know why you would use the word "our" in this context unless you think I belong to the group of "blacks who hate whites." It happens, however, that I'm blonde and blue-eyed, of Scandinavian, French and British extraction.
"Maybe you think it's unfair that this anger sometimes gets generalized to include you, when you yourself have never detained a black driver or used a choke hold to subdue someone you were arresting."
Let's try flipping it around.
"Maybe you think it's unfair that this anger sometimes gets generalized to include you, when you yourself have never mugged or raped an old defenseless white woman on a dark street to pay for your heroin addiction."
Racist or not?
Sheldon, this would be a *good* place to cop to your racism, cause no one here will hold it against you.
Moreover, police are authority figures. Society puts guns in their hands and generally supports them in their use of force. They have the backing of state power behind them. That's quite different from the behavior of drug addicts, who don't have that kind of backing. When police behave in the fashion I described, it provides a basis in "actual lived experience" for some black people to believe that whites are, as you put it, "The man. We control everything. We're privileged. The oppressor. We coordinate to keep blacks out, to keep blacks down." I don't see how the actions of your hypothetical heroin addict (or, for that matter, of the person who actually mugged you in Jamaica) could possibly provide a basis in actual lived experience for anyone to conclude that blacks are privileged oppressors in American society.
In short, your attempt to prove some point by "flipping around" statements is deceptive because it suppresses the ways that people with dark skins actually get treated differently in our society than white people. I remember going shopping once with a Pakistani friend (then a graduate student, currently a professor of linguistics) and seeing a shopkeeper tell him to get out of the store because it was "obvious that you aren't going to buy anything." I don't think that sort of thing happens very often to white people. In fact, I've yet to see you produce an example from your personal experience of ever being mistreated because of the color of your skin.
Re the rest of it, sorry I think I've tried the best I can to show you your racism. I find your generalizations about white people offensive, as a white person. I meant it when I said "ouch."
I haven't told any stories about being mistreated because of the color of my skin because it hasn't happened to me. The worst experience I ever had with black people happened 20+ years ago when I accidentally got off the subway in the middle of an all-black part of Brooklyn and didn't have money to get back on, so I had to walk home through an all-black neighborhood. Nothing happened to me except that some black kids hooted, "I think you're in the wrong neighborhood." That's pretty mild. In general when I've had dealings with people with dark skins, they've been as friendly and polite as the white people I know, and race isn't usually the topic we discuss. (The last conversation I had with a black guy was about whether he should use PayPal on his website.)
Of course, I've also had conversations with blacks where the issue of race is discussed, sometimes in a challenging way. For example, I was raised Mormon, and until 1979 the Mormon Church had a formal policy (known informally as the "Negro doctrine") which refused to allow blacks into their priesthood. When I was in high school, back around 1973, a black kid in my gym class came up to me and said, rather angrily, "I hear that Mormons think black people aren't allowed into heaven. Is that true?" It was an embarrassing and awkward moment for me, but I don't think it was "racist" for him to bring it up (even though he got the doctrine a little wrong). I had never agreed personally with the "Negro doctrine," so it felt a little unfair that he was putting me on the spot about it, but it's easy for me to understand his anger (and I'm rather proud that an uncle of mine was excommunicated from the church for protesting against the Negro doctrine).
As near as I can figure, you seem to think that the way I should have answered the black kid in my gym class would have been to call him a bigot, complain that all black people think alike about Mormons, and "flipping around" his statement by pointing out that Malcolm X once referred to white people as devils.
I can tolerate some measure of hypocrisy - otherwise I would have killed myself a long time ago. The issue is whether or not you believe Obama's larger goals are good or bad for the country.
When he leaves office in Jan, he leaves this country a much safer place, which cant be said for Bill Clinton if you read what the 9/11 commision report had to say. I greatly doubt we would have the security we take for granted these days, if Al Gore had come to power.
The economy was booming up until august, that was with two wars being run for five years. The reason for the downturn was bunch of 'smart' phd types in the ibanks of wall street inventing instruments whose risk no one understood. Unfortunately, I dont think there is much difference between Clinton, Obama or McCain. None of them imo will be very effective leaders.
George W. Bush, March 13, 2002: "I don't know where bin Laden is. It's not that important."
He did say he didnt know where Osama was. He also said, "I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban."
"He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we find a training camp, we'll take care of it -- either we will or our friends will."
And since I dont hate Bush for the sake of hating him - I read the above as - We have turned Osama into an incapable non functioning non-entity. An acceptable state of affairs imho given the realities on ground(Pakistan-Afghanistan border).
There is a big difference between saying he is not important and saying we have made him unimportant. Or do we need to have a 'just words' debate.
It is reasonable to assume the US has the best trained and best equipped units in the world out there looking for him. And if they havent been able to locate Osama its only because it isn't easy.
Its very easy to mock/hate/ridicule Bush but do it right next time.
Is it really about racism or it is about discrimination? The problem is that we tend to believe that we leave in a zero sum game: if we invest in improving the health care system and health system of under privileged people, then this must be a lost for people whose tax are being increased.
What is really interesting about Barack Obama is that he can inspire people and help them shift their perception.
-Edwin
In everyday life, black people are treated differently. So we have a chicken-and-egg problem. Are they treated differently because they act a certain way, or do they act a certain way because they're treated differently? My wife is a black woman. She notices how some white people won't approach her because they find black people foreign in some way. She experiences this with the elementary-school moms. That type of behavior changes a person, affects your willingness to join groups and decreases your desire to participate where you are often made to feel you aren't wanted.
Where are the black tech bloggers? It's not really the right question to ask. How are we, perhaps unwittingly, excluding people from areas such as technology at the very beginning? You'll probably be quick to claim that you've never excluded anyone, but we naturally seek out people who are similar to us. Maybe there was a black child in the class who could have become the next great tech blogger, but he didn't have anyone with which to share his ideas, to foster that love of technology and writing. It's very easy to say that 'they' have the same opportunities when in fact it's just not true.
We're all racists. Slavery had a huge impact and is still affecting this country. We have to figure out how we're going to stop putting this problem on other people and start working on our own behavior. We must stop spouting racial jokes, stop using the *n* word, and end the idea that being racially sensitive is being politically correct. If we each focus on ourselves, and change just a little, we might be able to make the progress that America needs.
Thanks for the dialogue!!!
Susan
@talentsynch on twitter
Susan
racism |ˈrāˌsizəm|
- the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief
I'm free of prejudices though. I dislike everyone equally.
Here's what I think.
Being racist is a characteristic of the human race as a whole regardless of color or any other attributes.
The problem is being racist *and* having (all the) power. That's the differentiating characteristic of white racism vs. black racism, non-arab israeli racism vs. palestinian racism, immigrant racism vs. native racism (e.g. in Brazil), etc.
If the the balance of power was inverted, it would produce similar effects (e.g. black people engaging in slavery of white people etc).
If one is from the racist-with-power side, it doesn't matter how clever or educated or compassionate or whatever she is. She simply can't appreciate what it is like to be from the other side. It has everything to do with the experience of being from the other side. In the same way that one cannot "understand" a culture in reference to another one. You have to live it.
So people in power might as well stop pretending they understand. They. do. not.
= tmk =
Or you could face reality?
Norbert
"Let us make generalizations about blacks and whites the way blacks always have"
No, let's not do that. It seems obvious to me that making generalizations based on skin colour is the behaviour that needs addressing, not expanding.
We're all different, all have our own hang ups and prejudices but none of us is the same and sweeping generalisations, be it on race, gender, religion or sexual preference is, I think, the cause of most of the resentment (on all sides).
We should call out individuals who are displaying bigotry, not make new generalisations.
It's kind of an ironic, almost humorous statement, if you don't think a bug is the end of the world.
Which I don't. Software engineers always create bugs. And people always make generalizations about each other, mostly unfair. I've noticed however that blacks do it openly, on radio and TV, and this is considered fair, but whites have to do it in private.
You may think (as you say) that we should all stop, and I might even agree, but I don't have the power to make it stop. So I choose to accept it, and I think in doing so, we'll be better prepared to deal with it when it happens.
Why The MSM doesn`t Report Black on White Murders