I also wonder if Libya [for .ly ] changes its policy about domain ownership, can that affect bit.ly or other services with cute domain name?
Batman
· 4 months ago
Excellent point, as I'm heavily invested in bit.ly links right now....
Mark Cooper
· 4 months ago
URL Shortening is silly because they introduce an extra point of failure. The destination server could be the most stable in the world, but if the URL Shortening website is down, you will never arrive there anyway.
Brandon
· 4 months ago
Pulled this quote off their website. Looks like you have till 12/31/09
"tr.im is now in the process of discontinuing service, effective immediately. Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward. However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009."
dave
· 4 months ago
That's good to know. :-)
Nick Bergus
· 4 months ago
Great, but how can I get a list of the URLs I've shortened? I can't even cut and paste them into Notepad now.
Nick Bergus
· 4 months ago
This pisses me off, too. I haven't done the dev work you have, Dave, but suddenly I don't have access to a ton of links that I have shortened and shared. And there is, seemingly, no way to even get a list of them from tr.im.
This is the problem with closed systems. What if the same thing happens at another shortener? Or at Twitter itself?
Jay Rosen
· 4 months ago
I want a four character url as in tr.im and is.gd and no more than 4 characters after the backslash as in http://tr.im/w5Rr because every extra character used by the url shortener cuts down on my creativity. That's one reason I liked tr.im
Zach Seward
· 4 months ago
Jay, the shortest option I've seen is 3.ly, which will actually save you two characters compared to tr.im. (They're only appending a three-character code — until people start using it, I guess.) And, Dave, the site says, "API Available - email us for more information." But while they're working on user accounts and more thorough analytics, the only way to see number of clicks is by adding a dash to the end of the URL.
Jay Rosen
· 4 months ago
Thanks, Zach. I wrote to 3.ly with a copy of this post and told them to get in touch if they have an interest.
Miguel
· 4 months ago
http://u.nu has been around a while longer, also with a 3-character domain name. After the slash it's currently up to 4 characters, though at the current rate it's going to hit 5 within a few weeks.
Scott Schrantz
· 4 months ago
The tr.im homepage says existing links will stay active "until at least December 31, 2009." So, five months until everything breaks. But it sure sounds like you can't make new links anymore, effective right now.
dave
· 4 months ago
Let's hope they give us a bit of grace on that too. I have a cold right now, and I was looking forward to going out to dinner with friends tonight. :-)
cheeky_geeky
· 4 months ago
A shame. Your tool seems very useful.
Eliza
· 4 months ago
Although the functionalities aren't a complete match for tr.im, former tr.im users might be interested in either http://safeurl.com or http://tin.io. Both services resolve some of the current major issues with tiny urls, security being a significant concern. Safeurl and Tin.io both show you a snapshot of your url destination before you arrive, and provide user ratings, resolving the inherent insecurity with most tiny urls. And of course, Safeurl.com and Tin.io aren't going anywhere anytime soon (we have some solid business planning in place, primarily ad-based but also through tie-ins with our other software, which is a good start!) We've posted our own personal urls through Tin.io - we're as screwed as you if we can't provide continuous support, and so we understand the importance of keeping things running....
Thanks, Eliza (project manager for SafeUrl.com and Tin.io) SilvaTech Media On Twitter: @ElissaBeth, @SilvaTech
bootload
· 4 months ago
Roach Motels
"... I've done a lot of building on the tr.im url-shortener, as have quite a few other developers. They just announced that they're shutting down. It's not clear what the timeframe is and how long we have to transition. Nor is it clear what will happen with all the tr.im urls that are already out there, will they break, and if so, when? ..."
The loss of link information could have been avoided if tr.im let users have accounts. With those accounts a supplied RSS feed with every url you submitted plus the shortened version and associated meta-data. You should join a service because it offers you the right to leave with your own data if you want. Simon Phipps (@webmink) proposed this idea in his article "Freedom to leave". ~ http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/freedom_to_l... It's an important concept to consider for developers and users alike.
The fact user data is not being offered sucks.
dave
· 4 months ago
I'm pretty sure I have all the data in my database here. The problem is that I don't have a way of redirecting from the tr.im domain to some other domain. If I did, I could probably fix any breakage caused by them going away.
I kick myself cause I knew better -- this is why I gave Feedburner a hard time in the early days and they solved the problem by letting people provide their own domains.
bootload
· 4 months ago
"... I'm pretty sure I have all the data in my database here. The problem is that I don't have a way of redirecting from the tr.im domain to some other domain. If I did, I could probably fix any breakage caused by them going away. ...
Didn't think of that. You have the data but it's not really that useful without the re-direction. I wonder if tr.im would sell the domain name?
Zach Seward
· 4 months ago
Hey, Dave. Sad news, indeed. I've been tempted by su.pr — primarily because shortening a link there also submits it to StumbleUpon, so it could drive additional traffic that isn't on Twitter. They also support link-shortening on your own domain, and they've got an API. The downside and probable dealbreaker is that su.pr URLs serve a StumbleUpon toolbar, like the DiggBar, ow.ly, etc. That's not required if you host it on your own domain, though.
Anyway, thanks for all your work building on top of tr.im. I heard from many, many people who really enjoyed 40 Twits and preferred to check in with my stream that way. I think there are lessons here for The Next Twitter.
dave
· 4 months ago
Zach, don't give up, we'll figure this out.
I looked at StumbleUpon's ability to host on your own domain, but it seemed weird that you had to install software on one of your own servers. I didn't understand why or what they were asking me to do.
I'll take another look.
jillelswick
· 4 months ago
The URL shortener Cli.gs (http://cli.gs/) has analytics, including hit time, geographical location, search engine bots, social media monitoring, and referral statistics.
Sergio Abranches
· 4 months ago
I dontt know of any url-shorteners out there that support the same functionality as tr.im, but because of this shutdown announcement and RTed I've been called attention to http://ur1.ca/ an open-source starter. Upon consultation I was informed that the open-source community could be stimulated to develop new functionalities. That could mean to repprduce tr/im's I hope.
Eric Woodward
· 4 months ago
I definitely regret creating problems for people that have built innovative applications on top of tr.im, but there is little I can do about that. The API is currently unaffected, and creates URLs and the website still redirects them. We only starting the process of pushing people to transition to another service. We will not be touching the API for now, and have no immediate plans to do so.
dave
· 4 months ago
Thanks Eric, I appreciate your working with us on this.
I wonder if there's some way I could give you a sub-domain of one of my domains and have all my tr.im urls redirect to that domain.
Also wish you had taken the Amazon web services approach to this -- flat rate billing based on number of urls and number of resolutions. That's what I wanted bit.ly to do.
Eric Woodward
· 4 months ago
That redirection idea, if I understand it exactly, necessitates changing the destination URL of each of your tr.im URLs, which we have no automated mechanism for. Also, you would need those destination URLs on your side anyway, which requires a lot of pain of configuration on your end too, guessing at your likely implementation. I am open to suggestions.
As for charging, it is my opinion we would have basically zero users today if we tried to charge anything, budurl notwithstanding. Running a website with 100 clients, or whatever charging shorteners have, is not something we set out to do.
dave
· 4 months ago
I have all the URLs in a database here so don't worry about that.
Scobleizer
· 4 months ago
Eric, tomorrow I will be meeting with executives from Rackspace. Is saving tr.im something that is possible? Or, even, is saving current links something that is possible? I'm not saying that Rackspace is interested, but I have a ton of links done in tr.im and I would like to make sure they continue to work. By the way, I am pretty sure that FriendFeed has expanded all of the tr.im links, so that's one big help there since that's my main real time search engine these days. Anyway, if you're interested, please send me email at scobleizer@gmail.com or call me at +1-425-205-1921
dave
· 4 months ago
FF doesn't nor should they expand the links. They just display the full link in the text of the message so the user can see in advance where they go.
As a user I wouldn't mind if Rackspace took it over, but I would mind if other companies did.
This whole thing is a mess, but it's a good mess to have, right now, because it raises other big issues that we should deal with.
For example, how do you know FriendFeed won't pull the plug on all the content we're putting there? It strikes me as exactly the kind of thing they would do, if it suited them.
Scoble, you're in a position to lead users here, I hope you do. And it's good that you're not on the SUL so you don't have to worry about pissing off Twitter. A lot of insiders in the tech business are too scared to say anything they might not like.
@scoble. Twitter is not the whole market for short URLs -think instant messaging, image boards, texts - so there's a possible purpose. The existing tr.im twitter business may have a negative worth to Rackspace, because of the need to support existing URLs, and because Rackspace would lose reputation if it took the obvious course and added paid adverts. So any decision to buy tr.im depends on whether the code and documentation is high quality. Suggest reviewing under NDA.
robotchampion
· 4 months ago
How about ow.ly and hootsuite?
Jay Rosen
· 4 months ago
owl.ly adds that annoying frame that obscures the underlying url. That is not the web I want. I want to know where I am. Whoever thought that device up does not understand the web. We don't need extra opacity, thank you.
jd
· 4 months ago
How much are they asking for the sale of the service? Dave, would you consider buying and installing it on AWS?
Michael Del Camp
· 4 months ago
Dear Dave Winer, sounds like you are looking for your next project. I am interested in working with you, and have a few ideas to run by you. I think I can get some funding. I was thinking of including an old high school buddy of mine, Ive Eicken, now living in Malibu, California, too. We are all same age cohort, and somehow, I think that helps when communicating. Also, corporate America is brutal nowadays with unlettered folks my own age. Let me know, please. I worked at MIT 4+ years, but never in the Computer Lab.
Threely
· 4 months ago
Sorry to hear about tr.im, sometimes what you need is to have is a passion for what you build.
We at 3.ly would like to offer tr.im an opportunity for us to support theire links going forward, that way tr.im links aren't broken (they will run or be forwarded to through our systems) and everyone is happy.
And to Dave Winer, please feel free to convert your apps to use Threely ( 3.ly ). Contact us for the API.
Please contact us by email, which is on our website: http://3.ly
Tr.im should hang in there until it finds a solution, we would like to help...
Thank you, Threely - 3.ly
dave
· 4 months ago
I'd rather not contact you privately -- please tell us what you can about the API here, publicly.
Also, who are you? What's your name? Tell us about your company and why you're providing this service, and how long you plan to do it.
Also, I learned an important lesson from tr.im -- I have to use my own domain for my URLs so that if your service goes the same route as tr.im, my links don't break. So do you provide that ability with your service?
I appreciate that you came here to tell us your story -- but I don't want to make the same mistakes again.
More importantly, what happens when to all those links when Twitter shuts down?
dave
· 4 months ago
And here's why the Suggested Users List is so bad -- this question should be asked by the leading tech blogs, TechCrunch, GigaOm, Mashable, ReadWriteWeb -- but won't be -- because they're "inside" and don't want to lose their advantage.
Further we were told that mainstream publications like the NYT and Guardian wouldn't be influenced by their position on the SUL, so I expect to see this issue raised there.
Dave, what do you think of the idea of twitter having a pool of shorteners (bit.ly, is.gd, tiny, etc) and rotate them instead of using just one?
dave
· 4 months ago
I don't know -- on the one hand it increases the likelihood of an outage. But maybe it would make a few more of them viable.
Chris Heath
· 4 months ago
in my mind if one goes down, then it's just taken out of the pool until it's back up
dave
· 4 months ago
Think about it -- that's not what matters. What matters is a situation like the one with tr.im, where the service goes away permanently and takes all its links with it.
Eric Woodward
· 4 months ago
We would have continued to develop and invest in tr.im if this option existed, but it doesn't, and I hear no talk of it anywhere. We are doing what we can here, maintaining all links. That December deadline can always be extended if need be.
dave
· 4 months ago
Why don't you tell us what the realities are -- how much money does it cost to continue to operate tr.im. You use qualitative terms in your blog post, but you don't say what it would take to keep it running. I suggest you don't do this privately, you've been very public, and that can be a good thing. As you can see from the response it has struck a nerve.
Also, if you don't mind, tell us what it would cost to get it into an open-sourceable form.
Eric we need a reliable service that we can be sure will be there for the future, at least until Twitter does something to obviate the need for URL shorteners. It's totally conceivable that tr.im could be that service.
Eric Woodward
· 4 months ago
I am really not sure what more I can offer here. tr.im costs about $2,500 in raw server costs per month to operate as currently configured because of the current volume, which will now start to drop off. The issue is more about having no chance to succeed as success would be defined in this area, and being distracted from ventures where inside connections don't determine success or failure, which they do on Twitter.
playerx
· 4 months ago
tinyurl.com survives quite well. been here before twitter. my guess will be here after twitter.
playerx
· 4 months ago
Also "no chance to succeed as success would be defined in this area" Who really defined success in this area? Who here as actually succeeded? What is the defining point of success? I would have to say no one has this answer. If they say they do, it's all about the level of usury their accountant is capable of. There isn't anything here which wasn't here before. People communicated using their computer or in short messages using IRC or Instant Messenger clients long before.
sam
· 4 months ago
this is my view about the whole tr.im thing, http://ff.im/6nocf not from me but a great point
Paul Papadimitriou
· 4 months ago
Who says there shall be only one? My take is that either Twitter buys one and restrict it's web service to this one (as with bit.ly now), tying up it's own future with a URL shortener or it opens up completely and lets users choose which one to use, through the settings (URL shorteners could be authorized via an API). Everybody deserves a shot, let the competition decide of the winner.
vrypan
· 4 months ago
It might be worth having a look at http://urlborg.com/ (using AppEngine). User accounts (allowing to get a full list of your links), optional (per user) url preview, and custom domains.
moon
· 4 months ago
Nambu is a Social Messaging Trainwreck and the only way they can come-up with to make money from Twitter is a tr.im extortion play
geeknews
· 4 months ago
Dave
This is one of the reasons I run my own that I control. The web based application is called Shorty. While it is not perfect and not as slick, at least I know the domains I use for it will not go offline. The key here is people that really count on URL shortners go out and buy there own short url, and host it them selves it does not need to be something cute. I run it on a spare server I have along with a bunch of other domains.
Joe Moreno
· 4 months ago
At Adjix, we were concerned about our links breaking for any reason (such as going out of business or our severs going down). For this reason, we've implemented each redirect as an HTML page and, in the event of catastrophe, we can fallback to Amazon's S3 which would only cost a few dollars/month: http://www.scripting.com/stories/2009/04/27/adj...
robotchampion
· 4 months ago
so if i switch to bit.ly does that mean im selling out?
Batman
· 4 months ago
Clearly, The Law!!!™ Has claimed another victim....
All Comments
"tr.im is now in the process of discontinuing service, effective immediately.
Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward.
However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009."
This is the problem with closed systems. What if the same thing happens at another shortener? Or at Twitter itself?
Thanks,
Eliza (project manager for SafeUrl.com and Tin.io)
SilvaTech Media
On Twitter: @ElissaBeth, @SilvaTech
"... I've done a lot of building on the tr.im url-shortener, as have quite a few other developers. They just announced that they're shutting down. It's not clear what the timeframe is and how long we have to transition. Nor is it clear what will happen with all the tr.im urls that are already out there, will they break, and if so, when? ..."
The loss of link information could have been avoided if tr.im let users have accounts. With those accounts a supplied RSS feed with every url you submitted plus the shortened version and associated meta-data. You should join a service because it offers you the right to leave with your own data if you want. Simon Phipps (@webmink) proposed this idea in his article "Freedom to leave". ~ http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/freedom_to_l... It's an important concept to consider for developers and users alike.
The fact user data is not being offered sucks.
I kick myself cause I knew better -- this is why I gave Feedburner a hard time in the early days and they solved the problem by letting people provide their own domains.
Didn't think of that. You have the data but it's not really that useful without the re-direction. I wonder if tr.im would sell the domain name?
Anyway, thanks for all your work building on top of tr.im. I heard from many, many people who really enjoyed 40 Twits and preferred to check in with my stream that way. I think there are lessons here for The Next Twitter.
I looked at StumbleUpon's ability to host on your own domain, but it seemed
weird that you had to install software on one of your own servers. I didn't
understand why or what they were asking me to do.
I'll take another look.
I wonder if there's some way I could give you a sub-domain of one of my
domains and have all my tr.im urls redirect to that domain.
Also wish you had taken the Amazon web services approach to this -- flat
rate billing based on number of urls and number of resolutions. That's what
I wanted bit.ly to do.
As for charging, it is my opinion we would have basically zero users today if we tried to charge anything, budurl notwithstanding. Running a website with 100 clients, or whatever charging shorteners have, is not something we set out to do.
in the text of the message so the user can see in advance where they go.
As a user I wouldn't mind if Rackspace took it over, but I would mind if
other companies did.
This whole thing is a mess, but it's a good mess to have, right now, because
it raises other big issues that we should deal with.
For example, how do you know FriendFeed won't pull the plug on all the
content we're putting there? It strikes me as exactly the kind of thing they
would do, if it suited them.
Scoble, you're in a position to lead users here, I hope you do. And it's
good that you're not on the SUL so you don't have to worry about pissing off
Twitter. A lot of insiders in the tech business are too scared to say
anything they might not like.
We at 3.ly would like to offer tr.im an opportunity for us to support theire links going forward, that way tr.im links aren't broken (they will run or be forwarded to through our systems) and everyone is happy.
And to Dave Winer, please feel free to convert your apps to use Threely ( 3.ly ). Contact us for the API.
Please contact us by email, which is on our website: http://3.ly
Tr.im should hang in there until it finds a solution, we would like to help...
Thank you,
Threely - 3.ly
Also, who are you? What's your name? Tell us about your company and why you're providing this service, and how long you plan to do it.
Also, I learned an important lesson from tr.im -- I have to use my own domain for my URLs so that if your service goes the same route as tr.im, my links don't break. So do you provide that ability with your service?
I appreciate that you came here to tell us your story -- but I don't want to make the same mistakes again.
Further we were told that mainstream publications like the NYT and Guardian wouldn't be influenced by their position on the SUL, so I expect to see this issue raised there.
the one with tr.im, where the service goes away permanently and takes all
its links with it.
to continue to operate tr.im. You use qualitative terms in your blog post,
but you don't say what it would take to keep it running. I suggest you don't
do this privately, you've been very public, and that can be a good thing. As
you can see from the response it has struck a nerve.
Also, if you don't mind, tell us what it would cost to get it into an
open-sourceable form.
Eric we need a reliable service that we can be sure will be there for the
future, at least until Twitter does something to obviate the need for URL
shorteners. It's totally conceivable that tr.im could be that service.
been here before twitter.
my guess will be here after twitter.
Who really defined success in this area? Who here as actually succeeded? What is the defining point of success? I would have to say no one has this answer. If they say they do, it's all about the level of usury their accountant is capable of. There isn't anything here which wasn't here before. People communicated using their computer or in short messages using IRC or Instant Messenger clients long before.
Everybody deserves a shot, let the competition decide of the winner.
This is one of the reasons I run my own that I control. The web based application is called Shorty. While it is not perfect and not as slick, at least I know the domains I use for it will not go offline. The key here is people that really count on URL shortners go out and buy there own short url, and host it them selves it does not need to be something cute. I run it on a spare server I have along with a bunch of other domains.
http://www.scripting.com/stories/2009/04/27/adj...