DISQUS

Scripting News: What is a netbook? (Scripting News)

  • ampressman · 1 year ago
    I think I get what you're getting at but aren't you being perhaps just a tad too specific with some of these required specs. So no SD reader and it's not a netbook? Only two USB ports and it's not good enough? So HP's Mini-note isn't a netbook because it has 2 USb ports and an Expresscard reader instead of SD? And what about HP's newer Mini 1000 and Lenovo's Ideapad S10 - only 2 USB ports. Or the Toshiba NB100 - no SD reader? Also I'd add having a fixed keyboard and a web cam...
  • Phil Glockner · 1 year ago
    For some reason, I am a little surprised you are running XP on your netbook. I really assumed you were much more of a Linux guy.
  • dave · 1 year ago
    I don't know what it means to be "more of a Linux guy" but I'm like the vast majority of netbook users, and I run XP.
  • Phil Glockner · 1 year ago
    Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to make you defensive. I use the hell out of XP on multiple desktops and notebooks in my life. So I'm not trying to pass any sort of judgement. But often you can choose the OS you want to get with a netbook, that's all.
  • JR Holmes · 1 year ago
    Have to agree that I would have thought that the "durable" criteria would have pushed more toward the all-flash netbooks, and thus the Linux-based ones. XP is certainly convenient for the majority of people since they are already familiar with it, but the light-weight and simple interface would be nice in a netbook. The only other reason to favor XP would be if there was a lot of software that people want to install. I haven't seen any statistics on how much software people are installing on netbooks. That might make all the difference in this criteria. If little additional software is installed, Linux-based with Firefox, etc. might be OK. If a lot of additional software, the familiarity of XP would rule.
  • Børge A. Roum · 1 year ago
    I agree! Why do you say that Win XP is so important, and why don't you even mention Linux at all as an alternative?
  • dave · 1 year ago
    Because I'm not in the business of selling one OS over another. I'm telling you what is, not what should be or what the alternatives are.
  • Børge A. Roum · 1 year ago
    I honestly don't understand what you mean by that. You are selling one OS over another all the time that you praise XP (on netbooks, not in it self) and don't even mention Linux.

    It is not hard to find a netbook with Linux, far from it! Actually the Eee's was Linux first, XP came later. All the major sellers of netbooks (Acer, Asus, Dell, Wind) offers both XP and Linux versions.
  • AndrewBurton · 1 year ago
    This may not be what Dave means, but as someone who has one of the first Eee PC's (the 4G 700, cheapest with a webcam) and runs Linux on it, I think the XP qualifier is a good one. If nothing else, if not as an OS, then it's a good benchmark. To me, it says, "To be a Netbook, as opposed to a PDA or PocketPC, you have to be able to run XP. You need 512MB of RAM and enough drive space for a real OS." That's why I agree with #9 anyway.
  • Phil Glockner · 1 year ago
    Now, I DO agree with this, Andrew. Having "must be able to run XP" is a good requirement in a Netbook. You can run Linux on less, but it isn't very pleasant.
  • nilchak · 1 year ago
    If definitions are to be considered - then going by the same logic - a laptop running windows is very good (and most people use it with windows), but running linux on it doesnt negate the fact that it still is a laptop.

    Or does the device then fall under some category other than "Laptop" ?

    Defining a hardware spec coupled with software which could be multiple choices is hardly a fitting definition.
  • Bob Gunther · 1 year ago
    Why not choice in operating system rather than stating it HAS to be Windows XP?
  • James Clarke · 1 year ago
    Dave.. I'm running a very recent build of Win7 on my Dell Mini 9 and it works extremely... some might say surprisingly well. Skeptics will inevitably pour scorn but the reality is somewhat different.
  • Stephen Rees · 1 year ago
    I have an Eeepc. I use it with the Xandros system it shipped with. I see no reason at all to pay to Windows XP on it - and I can run it off Ubuntu on a thumb drive but usually don't need to. Why fill up the small chip (there is no hard drive) with bloated system like XP?
  • nickc321 · 1 year ago
    I personally am an any OS guy... that said the desktop is Linux, the notebook is Mac, but the Netbook is XP... why... I'm not the only user and windows just seemed to work...
    the netbook I chose was the Acer Aspire One and to get the non-SSD HD I needed to chose an XP setup, 160GB as compared to 8GB, big difference especially since one major roles my netbook has is storing my photos while on travel.
  • https://openid.org/steven · 1 year ago
    Dave, one thing i'd add... there is no CD/DVD player (noticed at first by my wife!).

    Pic of my new Netbook http://tinyurl.com/3sys5u versus Latitude. How did i get it?? http://tinyurl.com/6rwgh9
  • asdf · 1 year ago
    "They should let all those programmers go, and hire some new ones from the user community, fix bugs and give the users what they want."

    Are the *programmers* deciding which bugs get fixed? Or the program managers? To me, Microsoft's biggest stumbles have been the product management arena, not the technical space. Vista is a result of poor management.

    The operating system team grown by Cutler around the release of NT/NT4 is one of the best in the business. Getting rid of them would be a huge mistake.

    From the user community? Upgrading Ubuntu 7.4 to 7.10 required me, a user, modifying the source of the upgrader. I'm a fan of Linux, don't get me wrong.

    XP is great, no doubt. They should keep it around. But the OS will continue to change. That's a given. Getting rid of the best asset they have makes no sense.
  • dave · 1 year ago
    I don't really want to make hiring/firing decisions for Microsoft. My main point is that XP is creating a new wave of products, and so Microsoft doesn't understand it, fine -- but stay out of the way and make the money -- it's free money.
  • Noah Mittman · 1 year ago
    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on John Gruber's belief that netbook's aren't a truly new category -- just really cheap laptops (http://daringfireball.net/2008/12/apple_netbook...). There's no doubt that cheaper, smaller laptops open a lot of new possibilites, but I think they're still keeping us in a computing status quo. Jobs gets that the iPhone OS adds a new dimension of computing that didn't exist before but it's not a real end-user platform. UMPCs could have been it, but they simply cannot get the price/performance formula right -- it's a disaster.

    I think "Net"books are new categories when they are considered as appliances (i.e. with a custom software experience [usually in Linux, I'm sure] with the focus of compatibility placed squarely on the browser and not the operating system), but requirements #7 and #9 preclude that.
  • dave · 1 year ago
    I would never argue with Gruber -- he's one of the smartest guys out there and yes of course they are just cheap laptops, but they are also small as you point out in your second sentence and they also are the other things. The category was fluid in 2008, it's conceivable Apple could have broadened it to include the iPhone, but it's very clear now that didn't happen. And imho the iPhone would have had to change in a very important way to have even the slightest chance of being part of this wave -- Apple would have to stop being the judge of what can ship for the platform. I think there are a lot of things that just can't happen on the iPhone because people won't invest knowing that Apple gets to say no.
  • Noah Mittman · 1 year ago
    Well, I used to lust after the Atari Portfolio, so I've been waiting for small, cheap computing for a long time, and it probably why I've stuck with Nokia Maemo for so long. They're more like the new category than I think netbooks are, but what I like about netbooks is that they prove that there are certain basic use-cases out there that computers (and subsequently services) can focus on and provide value to most people without having to be expensive or overpowered in ways users don't need. My problem with Apple is that they take all those items that we should freely be able to edit and modify on the fly and shove them into locked boxes.
  • KevinCTofel · 1 year ago
    Let's not forget one key aspect: choice of OS is a personal choice so you can't make the wrong one if you're using one that meets your needs. Dave outlined his netbook requirements long ago and one of them was that the software he uses needed to be supported by the OS. Linux doesn't support the software he uses, so it won't meet his needs.

    It's not about proclaiming that one OS is equivocally better than another, because nobody can make that decision for anyone else. ;)

    Having said that, there's room in the netbook market for every OS in my opinion. I've run them all on netbooks: various Linux distros, XP, Vista, Windows 7, and OS X. From a hardware standpoint they all work. From a choice standpoint, they should all be considered based on your individual needs.

    XP is the "lightest" current Windows OS available on netbooks today and I think Dave's point is well taken in that Microsoft might want to reconsider killing off XP. They've already moved the end date a time or two and I suspect that in the end, it WILL go away in favor of Windows 7. Time will tell.
  • rimworker · 1 year ago
    What would a device be called that:

    Netbook size, small but with screen on back of regular screen for cell phone mode display.

    Has integrated 3G, wifi, bluetooth.

    Detachable Bluetooth headset, vibrates, shows caller id on tiny screen.

    I want one. I'm alywas carrying a laptop anyway. What would such a device be called?
  • jack · 1 year ago
    Gruber's article is dead. He's way ahead of dave on this topic.
  • jonknee · 1 year ago
    Netbooks are the piece of tech that I'm most excited about, fairly game changing (economical mobile computing). I don't agree with all your points, but hey, that's why there are lots of models. I have an Aspire One running Linux and love it.

    After browsing specs for days and days I decided to make it a bit easier for other people and threw up a database. I still need to populate it with some more info, but it should be handy to a few people.

    http://www.netbooktracker.com

    You can browse around and hit compare on any of the models in the database (sort of like a shopping cart). Then whenever you visit the compare page it shows a lineup between the models you selected. Keeps out the guesswork for sure.
  • Sar Castic · 1 year ago
    An Atom processor instead of an RSS processor? WTF?
  • marshal sandler · 1 year ago
    Netbooks are like Kindle they are here to stay ! This article is great since I may buy one and not being a teche this helps a lot !
  • Don McArthur · 1 year ago
    The purpose of Vista is Digital Rights Management (DRM). Until the relationship between MS and the RIAA and the MPAA is made clear, any decisions Redmond might make regarding XP are going to be the opposite of transparent.
  • ryantate · 1 year ago
    Regarding your point on vendor lock-in, is there any, with OS X or XP or anything else? -- aren't all the key apps you use on one of these things Web apps? So as long as there's Firefox or whatever browser you like, you're good to go.

    Or if not what are they key desktop apps you tend to use. I ask because I don't own a netbook and am curious about why the OS is important if I do buy one.

    (On my laptop I use the Web for my mail and rss apps, and would gladly switch for music (if I didnt have so many DRMed itunes tracks) and image editing (but I need blur) and video editing (not yet a Web thing, but who does that on a netbook). And Web post writing (ecto).)
  • dave · 1 year ago
    I use plenty of non-web apps. I use the OPML Editor for writing and programming, I use a graphics program to edit photos (different on each platform). I use VLC to play movies and iTunes for music. Skype for phone calls. Remote Desktop Connection to manage servers. VMWare for Windows (on Mac) or Linux (on Windows). And on and on.
  • ryantate · 1 year ago
    Thanks!
  • Jeremy · 1 year ago
    Just curious, what do you run in Linux (under VMWare)? I don't think I've read you mention this on the blog.
  • dave · 1 year ago
    Not much, just learning and having a place to test stuff on Linux.
  • Karl Bastian · 1 year ago
    I have a MacBook Air and it is a dream machine and can do much, especially w/ MobileMe which gives you complete access and control of all your other machines, data, drives, etc. and how you can mirror data so whatever I di on Air is updated on all other Macs, its a whole lot more than just thin
  • michael · 1 year ago
    I think your list is not what makes a netbook a netbook but rather what makes a netbook good for you in the current market. Next month a new low power processor could come out and your Atom specification will look silly. In the future Linux apps could become more available and negate your need for windows.

    I think a basic definitiion is a lot simpler. A netbook imo is a laptop that you use almost exclusively for connecting to the *net. It has all the capabilities a normal laptop would if it was used for only connecting to the *net, looses all the added laptop features that aren't needed and gains features that make it more portable (such as size, weight, battery life and cost).

    I think the wikipedia definition is pretty close to that too: "A netbook is a light-weight, low-cost, energy-efficient, highly portable laptop suitable for web browsing, email and general purpose applications"
  • dave · 1 year ago
    Actually i think the Wikipedia definiiton is very close to what I have. I've just added the specifics. You're right it is a snapshot in time, but it's not my preferences, it really is the feature set the market has settled on. Go have a look at what people are buying. I'm sure it's the features listed in 1-9. It may change, or maybe the category will go away. It's a very fast thing, came up quickly, it could go back down just as quickly. I have nothing vested in it except I love the products and I'm glad it's happening.
  • Anon · 1 year ago
    Should you have made the National Lampoon cover available under a Creative Commons license on Flickr? Poor dog.
  • dave · 1 year ago
    I changed it. Thanks for noticing.
  • spyguy · 1 year ago
    Technically what the netbook vendors are shipping is MS Windows XP EMBEDDED, which I think will be around for quite a while since Win Vista will be much harder to redesign for the embedded system market. Also technically a netbook can be considered an embedded system because it is using an embedded system processor (Intel Atom), just like cell phones use embedded processors.

    As for Apple, the only difference I can find between Apple hardware and PC hardware is the BIOS/Firmware. Apple uses a very customized version of a standard Intel BIOS/Firmware which I suspect can not be reverse engineered without violating tons of Apple patents and copyrights. So in theory, since Asus makes some of Apple's laptops, Apple could have a netbook to sell without too much trouble. Just redesign the Asus EEE PC case a little and viola, an Apple netbook. Note that Apple already has an embedded version of OSX/Darwin. It currently is complied to run on an ARM processor, but I would expect a quick recompile and they would be good to go.
  • KevinCTofel · 1 year ago
    spyguy, netbook vendors are not shipping any netbook that I know of with Windows XP embedded. They're shipped with full XP SP3, Vista, or Linux distros. If you think XP embedded is going to be around quite a while, then you missed the news in October: "Quebec", the next version of Windows embedded is based on Windows 7, which in turn is based on Vista. http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/o...

    Don't get me wrong: an embedded OS for a netbook isn't a bad idea and I've called for one ages ago. However, it's not an idea that's implemented yet in mainstream netbooks. Additionally, there are plenty of standard notebooks that have embedded processors, so I'm not sure how or why you're making a distinction here.
  • spyguy · 1 year ago
    It will take quite a while for "Quebec" to actually hit the market (Win 7 is still along way off, no matter the MS hype) and even longer for Win XP embedded to disappear because of the lead times in the embedded market. As for the differences between the embedded version of Win XP and the commercial version of Win XP, there are none, except the system makers can choose to not implement some parts of embedded win XP, although in this case the system folks have chosen to implement the full OS. Basically it is a marketing subterfuge to allow the embedded systems folks the ability to use win XP and deny win XP to the commercial market. While the bits are exactly the same, MS just has many (many, many) different licenses and contracts designed to compartmentalize different products to different customer segments.

    Intel has done the same thing. 486 processors were available to the embedded systems folks long after they were denied to the commercial system folks. Since it doesn't cost very much to keep a product around and milk it for more revenue, as long as their main market is"protected," there is no reason to kill a product that is bringing in "extra" money.

    That being said, Atom is a new chip that was originally designed for the embedded market (cell phones and the like) and I suspect that Intel has mixed feeling about netbooks because while they are a nice revenue stream, they cannibalize sales from the much higher margin laptop business. Remember that while development costs for chips is very high, the actual daily production cost per chip is very low (approaching zero in some cases). Given that, which would you rather sell, a Core-duo for big bucks or a an Atom for a lot less, given that the production costs for both is similar?

    Windows CE, Windows XP, Linux and MacOS are among the most popular operating systems in the embedded market these days, which means ont he OS side, the only real difference between the commercial market and the embedded market is just marketing spin. These days, for most embedded systems, there is no difference between commercial and embedded operating systems

    The CPU makers differentiate between the commercial market and the embedded market a little more definitively. While Intel and Amd are the only commercial CPU vendors, there are lots of embedded CPU vendors in addition to Intel and AMD. Traditionally, the embedded CPU market was concerned more with cost than performance, so embedded CPUs tended to be commercial CPUs rebranded after their commercial life (8041, 486, etc). Recently though, several companies have designed CPUs specifically for the embedded market and the Intel Atom is one of these.

    The bottom line is that for all practical purposes the commercial and embedded markets are the same from a technical perspective, but "different" from a licensing/marketing perspective.

    So if an "embedded" design can be used to satisfy a "commercial" market need, so be it. The only "losers" will be the component vendors (MS and Intel in the case of netbooks) who will make less profit.
  • liza · 1 year ago
    this is such a really description that i am declaring it and using it as Writ Law
    in my guerrilla publishing workshops.

    thanks, Dave!
  • Matt · 1 year ago
    I agree about XP over Vista, but I would still take the OS requirement off your definitive list--which I respect is yours to define. But a person could easily run Linux in XP's place and even run XP under virtualization if they wanted to. It's just a matter of personal preference.
  • Brett Nordquist · 1 year ago
    I actually thought I owned Netbook (Lenovo X61) until I read this post. It's so very tiny but it's hella expensive and use a Core 2 chip instead of Atom proc. I just assumed I had a more expensive Netbook, but now I know. :-)
  • nilchak · 1 year ago
    Dave, I have a laptop which came with Windows.
    I removed Windows and installed Linux.

    Now if someone made a list like you do about the netbooks and says Windows as a requirement for laptops (since most laptops do come with windows), then does that make my laptop NOT a laptop any more since I removed windows and installed Linux ?
  • Toriam · 12 months ago
    It's not a half-bad operating system and its cheap and runs on cheap hardware. We like it!

    This is what alot of people say about Linux too. And when you get into things like Ubuntu and Fedora, alot of newer things can be run. Saving bout $150 (at least) on a netbook is an added perk.
  • Phil · 10 months ago
    If netbooks don't have a DVD/CD writer, can a printer be connected via USB and if so how is the printer driver/software installed?

    Many thanks, Phil
  • Imran Naseem · 9 months ago
    Hummmm
    If netbook doesnt have any dvd/cd drive even then you can connect your printer to your netbook
    and you can install drivers of the printer using Flash Drive, Copy drivers of the printer from Uni computer into your data traveller, and install in your netbook
  • Joy · 6 months ago
    A Netbook is a new type of laptop computer, defined by size, price, operating system(OS). They are light and portable, cheap, with
    basic computer use, email, web and more. Easy anytime-anywhere internet access, built-in web cam plus stereo speakers.

    Netbooks run either Windows XP or Linux.
    1) Size, Netbooks have 9- or 10-inch screens, weigh from 2 to 3 pounds, and sport keyboards sized from 80 percent to 95 percent of normal. (80-85 keys)

    2) Price, Netbooks start at about $330 for a Linux-based model and $350 for an XP-based machine.

    3) Features, * Screen resolution 1024x600
    * Intel Atom CPU running at 1.6-GHz
    * Wi-Fi B and G
    * Ethernet at 100Mbps
    * A slot for a flash RAM memory card
    * External VGA output jack
    * Integrated graphics
    * Two or three USB ports
    * Built-in camera ****No bluetooth

    What is difference between UMPX and Netbook? Click here to know: http://www.1010store.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=...